Episode 133: Surviving California & helping small owners implement RUBS with Tiffany Mittal – Apartments Operators Podcast

Tiffany Mittal joins Joseph Gozlan on the Apartments operators podcast to share her multifamily journey. From running section 8 properties in California to the realization that they need to move away to landlord friendly Florida where they teamed up with Grant Cardon to develop an easier way for small multifamily operators to implement RUBs using their proprietary software called Utility Ranger.

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Show Transcript

Welcome to the Apartment Operators Podcast, where you can learn from experienced operators what it really means to be an apartment operator. No fluff, no sugarcoating, just the raw, unfiltered truth 📍 of the ups and downs of operating multifamily communities.

Welcome, everybody to the Apartments Operators podcast.

My name is Joseph Kazan. I’m your host, and today we have a special guest. We have Tiffany Al. Tiffany, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me on the. Awesome. So every time we let our guests introduce themselves, give us 30 seconds a minute of who you are, how your portfolio look like, how we got to where we are, and then we’ll take it from there.

Absolutely. I’m Tiffany Mitel and I’ve been in the multi-family industry for about 12 to 13 years now. I got into it through my husband who owns Multi-Family as well. As I got into it, I realized I not only loved multi-family, but I really loved the technology side of it. So as we’ve been going through our day-to-day management, I’ve actually went off on the side a little bit and have a technology company focused on multi-family industry, but still as an owner operator. Most of our portfolio, we have about a hundred units in San Diego. We’ve recently relocated our family from San Diego to Florida and moved our portfolio from self-managed to third party management, which has definitely been an interesting transition.

But we’re looking to grow our portfolio now out here. Florida in the East coast. So looking to to grow like most multi-family owners. Yeah. So that’s gonna be definitely a lot of interesting conversations. Just on that intro I’ll start with congratulations from escaping California. We’re in Texas.

We’re not in Florida, but Florida is a close it’s a close sister to us. And so you have about a hundred units all in California, which I’m sure has its own challenges. Yes. And you’d mentioned you were self-managing. Yeah, so we were self-managing for a long time and my husband comes from a family of apartment operators.

His parents have about 3000 units in Los Angeles. So we were well-versed in the self-management, but we realized as we went to go relocate our family to Florida, you can’t really manage apartments from that far away from self-managing. So we transitioned to third party management about one year.

Okay. So before we talk about that transition, cuz there’s definitely a lot in there, I’m sure. Oh yeah. Let’s start with the self-managing side of things, right? What were you doing? How did the operation look like? A hundred entities, not small change. So how was that? How was the day-to-day, who was doing what?

Tell us a little bit about that. We had onsite managers, so our portfolio consisted of two larger properties, a 36 unit and an 18 unit property. And then we have a bunch of duplexes and we have some student housing as well. Most of our properties were managed by some of our onsite manager. At our larger properties, they were also managing the smaller properties.

My husband was very actively involved with our maintenance techs, making sure that everything was running smoothly. We didn’t really have a lot of turnover. Most of our apartments were in B minus C plus areas, so we had. Quite a few of Section eight tenants. We’ve learned quite a bit about working with Section eight, but during Covid it really saved us, right?

Because our tenants didn’t have jobs, right? They’re all on section eight, not all of ’em, but probably 75% of ’em. So that was able, we were able to, through that. Really protect our income, but we’ve learned a lot by having Section eight tenants. It’s it’s challenging in and of itself. But what you do grit, what you do get, and it’s huge benefit, is long-term tenants.

You don’t really have a ton of turnover throughout. Yeah, so I don’t think we ever dove deep into the section eight with any of our guests, so let’s talk like that for a little bit. A lot of people have the cons and pros. The pros are pretty obvious, right? Money comes into the bank account automatically every month, no question is asked.

But there’s also some challenges that, that come with that. I know from our perspective when we had c class apartments and we had some voucher program housing kind of tenants, then you have the annual inspections and you have the inspection before they move in and so on. But how was, does it look like in a state like California, which I’m sure has a little extra than everybody else, everywhere else.

Yeah, definitely. So how does that look like? What would you. Recommend or not recommend for somebody looking into using section eight in their properties. I would say you still have the annual inspections, but we really use those to our advantage, right? So it gets us the ability to get in the unit, make sure that they’re taking care of the unit, get any service requests that need to be taken care of, handled right away.

Where oftentimes, some of our non section A tenants, they don’t want you in the unit because they’re either hiding a dog or hiding extra tenants. And so by getting in the unit through. Mandates of annual inspections, it gets you the ability to make sure that the unit’s being taken care of. Not all Section eight tenants are equal, right?

Like we prefer, we don’t necessarily choose one over the other, but we prefer the little old ladies, right? They are there, they’re happy. If that we’ve had a few Section eight tenants that have been challenging. , but we’ve worked through that process and the good part about having a challenging Section eight resident is if they’re too challenging, you call their social worker.

And that social worker puts ’em in line real quick because they don’t wanna lose their Section eight housing. They’ve had taken probably years to even get on the list. The sad part is there’s no really easy transition off the list. I think during our. Time that we’ve owned the apartments, we’ve only seen one tenant come off of section eight because they’ve, gotten a job and made it themselves and still been able to pay the rent.

And so it’s, there’s not a real easy solution for them who want to come off of it. Once they’re on it, they’re on it. And so we try to, selectively make sure that they’re gonna fit within the community and be a good resident to everybody else as well. Gotcha. That makes sense.

And like you said, there’s they’re not all equal, right? , they’re the old lady. It’s a single person in the unit, and she usually has a lot of flowers and a lot of plants. And she picks her the property and she’ll call and tell on anybody that makes noise or make something that they shouldn’t be doing.

But then again, you have the. Such an a tenant that will create a lot more wear and tear on the property. So yeah it’s a little bit of a balancing act between them. Unfortunately, you can’t just. Screen for, I only accept little old ladies, right? Yeah. Once you accept section eight, you accept section eight and there’s fair housing rules that come with that.

And I think in California as well, everybody has to accept section eight now. It’s been mandated, so we were a little bit ahead of the game because we were already accepting it. I think once you get in and understand the program, it’s just part of the process and it’s not actually as difficult.

So I haven’t heard about that. So California now mandates that you can accept. Accepting the voucher. Yeah. Okay. But they cannot mandate you to pass inspection. . I don’t know all of the nuances of , every part of that, but I know we weren’t impacted because we’re already accept accepting section eight.

So it wasn’t an issue for us, but there’s a lot of mandates that are put on landlords in California that definitely make it challenging to be a landlord in California, that as we look to grow our portfolio, we are looking outside of California. To more landlord friendly states. Yeah. I think Alameda County just announced that you cannot screen for criminal background anymore which is, that’s fun.

Yeah. That’s that’s, yeah, that makes sense. California. Yeah. And it’s ironically, it’s one of the most violent counties in, in, in California. I think it’s in the top seven or something like that in terms of violent crimes. Okay. So the decision came in and we’re moving to California.

Moving out of California, moving to Florida. So self-managing is not sustainable, especially because, like you said, your husband was very involved in the active day-to-day. . Then now come the search for third. . So how does that go? What do you look for in a third party property management? How did the process go and how did you end up picking whoever you end up picking?

It’s not an easy process. It’s. It’s almost like giving your children away for someone else to raise. These are our properties that we put a lot of time and energy into and it, the idea of giving it to somebody else to manage was definitely, I. Challenge that we had to overcome because we knew we needed to do that to grow and to move ourselves to a different state.

We interviewed many multi-family management companies. We chose a local company within, the area where our apartments are. They’re well known and. We, the different management companies that we looked at, they all had their, pros and cons. I would say looking for somebody who has the majority of their portfolio similar to yours.

So our portfolio, our buildings aren’t overly large. 36 units is our largest property. So looking for somebody who manages properties that are 50 units and under, or a hundred units and under. Their sweet spot. Managing for people who have a few hundred units up to a thousand units that really shows us, they will really understand our market.

They actually were able to push our rents $300 more a month than we were getting, and we almost didn’t believe that’s what they were getting. For the neighboring communities, but the rents have gone up so much in San Diego over the past year. So we’ve actually seen a huge increase in our income.

it took us a little while to get over the control aspect of it. Of, as soon as we left, there were seven air conditioners ordered for one property. And we’re like, how can you have seven air conditioners go out in one month after we leave? And then we dug in and tried to figure out how to solve that issue.

But I think where we. , even though we were giving up control actually heard this on another podcast, which is funny. And it helped us with our mindset shift. Even though we were giving up control of the day-to-day operations, we still had control over other areas we had control over. Where to invest, what to invest in, and who to invest with.

And that kind of shift of control over the operations, into control over where to invest and what type of assets to invest in, gave us that control feeling and how this focused on the future rather than the day-to-day operations. Yeah. And there’s always a challenge. Like I said, it’s a little bit of a baby and you handed it over.

Yeah. And. What we’ve heard from a lot of our operators that we interviewed is. I want to just reiterate what you said. You gotta pick a company that does exactly what your kind of asset looks like, right? If you’re doing student housing, they better be doing student housing. If you’re doing 200 plus units, they better be doing 200 plus units, but you’ll take a company that runs two, 300 plus units and give them a 20 unit or a 36 unit.

They will not run it as good. Yeah. Unless that 36 units is right across the street from the 200 unit, that’s a different source. Exactly. Exactly. So I think that was a very smart choice in searching for a property management company that, exactly that asset class that you have, you guys have, and then.

Yes. There, there is that aspect of I would send a technician to fix that ac and for them the easiest solution was let’s order a new one. . And there’s that. How did that conversation go? . That conversation was a difficult conversation at first. My, my husband calls our trusted maintenance guy who doesn’t work for the management company to go out to the properties to really see what was going on.

That. That was a little bit of a challenge and getting ourselves to pull back from that was a challenge. But I think once we got in there, we realized that maybe only two of those needed to be done. And we sat down with the management company and said, look, these are our expectations.

It’s not just for place, everything that needs to be looked at. It’s, you have to look in, see if the filters need to be cleaned, see if there’s something else, what’s really the problem. . And if it does need to be replaced, it needs to be replaced. But getting in there and setting the expectations with the management company of we can’t just have all this cash go out.

And I think another interesting way that we’ve approached it, which we’ve of learned from others as well, is not leaving a bunch of money. in the account. So every month we leave about $5,000 in the account. Everything else comes back to us. And the reason we do that is because if we leave all the money in the account, they’ll find reasons to spend it.

Oh, we need this new and this new, . So if it needs to be done, show me needs to be done, and we’ll make sure that the money’s available to get it done. , but not leaving money in the account except for just the minimum to cover payroll and any, small maintenance things that are required.

That’s been our strategy for the last year and our income has increased substantially. And I would say that our day-to-day stress of the operations has relieved a lot of time that we can now focus on, growth and future forward. . Yeah. Do you think some of the, let’s replace over, let’s try to figure out what’s going on and fix it has to do with the fact that these are smaller properties that don’t have full-time maintenance team on site.

Or is it. . It’s just an attitude thing. I think it’s just the way that they were approaching most of their properties. I think every owner has a different way they want their properties managed. I think it’s just setting clear expectations with the management company of what you expect and the way you expect things to be handled.

I think for them it’s a time thing. It’s easier to order it, get it replaced. The manager says it needs to be replaced, but we also had a new manager. Site as well. So they weren’t used to our, regular operations of how we would run things. And we know it’s not going to be the same, but some of those expectations just need to be set up front.

And so we don’t have those problems anymore. I think once we set those clear expectations, I think it’s constant communication. We meet with the management company monthly to review. Anything that’s coming up, any move-ins or move-outs any big expenses that are coming up. We had a few other expenses where we had to replace on the mailboxes at all the properties because some of them were damaged from tenant damage, and some of those were larger expenses that we didn’t really prepare for or didn’t really think that.

they needed to be done, but once we talked to the manager, we got pictures, it was obvious that it needed to be replaced. It’s just a, again, setting the expectations and having consistent communication with your management team. And then I’m sure as we continue, maybe those monthly meetings go to quarterly meetings, once we build a rapport of, expectations and.

But we’re getting there. We’re getting there. It’s it’s definitely a work in progress and I would say going forward as we buy assets in Florida or anywhere nearby here, we probably will move to third party management from the start, just because it’s allowed us to free up our time to focus on things that are bigger and more income producing.

Yeah and I think you’ll learn over time that. There is that level, that scale when you hit it, when you’re gonna flip again and go back into self-management or creating your property management company, because that’s what we’ve heard from over 90% of all the operators we’ve interviewed. As soon as they hit a certain scale, they switch back to self-management.

So don’t throw away those pro those procedures, keep them in the back door. You might need them again one day. Yeah. I would say that we’re focused on other things. Right now, like I said, we started a PropTech company. And so right now that’s our focus. Our focus is investment. And that kind of started out of a self need we had during the self-management process, as I’m sure you have seen We were having a struggle with a hundred units of getting technology companies to to allow us to use their product.

For example, we wanted to start a RUBS program and no one would service us. Unless you had a thousand units, they weren’t interested in you, you weren’t big enough for them, for their people to service the billing and bill our tenants for the water, sewer trash, but, . We had, incidences happen where one of our residents had running water and the neighbor calls us and says, the neighbor has running water all day.

And we get our manager in there and we find out that she’s not even home. And part of the problem was, she said when she got back is her dog has anxiety and therefore she let her shower on when she goes to work every day. And we were. , oh my God, we can’t continue to foot the bill because your dog has anxiety.

This is crazy. And in Southern California, water costs were so high. And that’s how I even got into PropTech was nobody would service us because we didn’t have a large enough portfolio. And so my husband said why don’t you go work. For one of these utility billing companies and backdoor our way in there, and then they have to service you by default.

So that’s what I did. I worked for a utility billing company in San Diego, helped grow that company from a hundred thousand to 20 million in five years, and I turned away people all day long who didn’t have a thousand units or more because it just wasn’t. Time efficient for us to spend the same amount of time on a 20 unit property as it was to spend time on a portfolio of 5,000.

And so I was so frustrated that no one would help us with our small portfolio. I said, these people like us, they don’t need these service companies. They just need a tool to do it themselves. So that’s why we started Utility Ranger, which is a D I Y rub software meant for the small owner. . And I left my PropTech and FinTech position to, to start this a little over a year ago.

And then We realized in this small realm, how do you reach these small apartment owners? And we realized you had to have a node. And I realized at that point that the node is Grant Cardone. Everybody knows him and everybody, follows him who owns apartments because he teaches people how to invest in multi-family.

And so about a year ago he bought half our company. Utility ranger and we launched it earlier this year and helping small owners just like ourselves of, democratizing the space of PropTech for owners to really help grow their portfolio. That same actually unit that one property, we got 36,000 of additional revenue that year, about a thousand dollars a unit.

And what people don’t realize, and I think I realized in that moment, Is when we had that 36,000 of additional revenue, Freddie Mac gave us a refinance on our loan and they gave us a million dollar increase valuation from that 36,000 of additional revenue and gave us a cash out refinance of 500,000, which we then used to buy another property and we were like, What does this look like across our portfolio?

How can we use this as a mechanism for growth? It’s not just about having your tenants pay their portion of the water bill. It’s really a mechanism for growth and getting that revenue from your expense line to your revenue line. and using that across our portfolio to really grow. So I thought, there’s no reason these small owners can’t have the same advantages the big guys have been having for years.

So that was really the genesis of starting a PropTech company focused on the small owners, is because we needed it and I knew other people like us needed it, and then they could see the same advantages that we saw and grow in the same. Yeah. So you were not charging anything before that on utilities? We weren’t charging utilities initially.

We started in about 2012 charging utilities, and that’s after I got a job at the company. In 2011, we rolled it out on our properties. We saw a huge increase. In N noi. We. Refinanced our properties, pulled a lot of money out to buy additional properties. We also rolled it out on my family’s portfolio and we were growing, a lot in this kind of smaller market, but we were moving up market.

And so, If you had, if you didn’t have a thousand units, nobody would pay attention to you. And that’s when I realized with people don’t need these companies. They just need a tool to do it themselves. So before then, yeah, we weren’t doing it. But now I can’t imagine not doing it. People think, oh, I just include it in my rent and I’m at market rent.

But if you’re at market rent, let’s say a thousand dollars and you’re not including it and your competitor has a thousand dollars in so if you’re not, sorry, if you are including it at a thousand dollars and your competitor’s not including it, they’re really getting 1100 and you are really getting 900.

So how do you compete in a market if you’re $200? , lower than your competitor on a per unit basis per month. It’s just not really a way to compete in that market. Yeah. It’s interesting because we actually started having conversation with operators and we were hearing a bunch of them doing a u-turn on the whole rubs, but not giving up that income just shifting into a fixed.

Fee. . Basically, if the average on a one bedroom is $65 then that would be the fee, or 35 or 45, whatever the number is. So they would do like an average and they’ll just put it as a fixed fee in addition to the rent instead of doing the whole Robs, because Robs probably gets you the most.

Money back. There’s no doubt about it. If you wanna squeeze, ever drop out of. Property, then you absolutely want to have rubs programs in place. But a lot of the operators, we, not a lot, but some of the operators we spoke with recently have shifted over into fixed fees because, It quiets down the noise, right?

You don’t have to have the conversation of Why this month I paid more than last month? Where is that fee coming from? Why? What happens if there’s a leak? Do you credit them or not? All these kind of conversations go away. when there is a fixed fee. And some of the resident would actually prefer that because that gives them the stability.

So what’s funny though about that? So let’s say you give them a fixed fee and we’ve seen this and I’ve seen this cause I’ve been in this industry for quite a while. Once you give somebody a fixed fee, let’s say it’s 50 or 60 to $65 a month, once you know that fee isn’t going to change, your water consumption changes dramatically.

Think about when you go to a hotel, right? , everybody does this. Your shirt’s wrinkly. You hang it up on a hangar, you put it in the shower, and you don’t think about it, and you can get all the wrinkles out because you’re not paying for the water and it’s part of your hotel amenities. Same thing with apartments.

If you know that your bill is not going to change, your water use is going to change, meaning you’re not gonna care whether you turn off the sink while you’re brushing your teeth, or you do a load of laundry with two pieces of clothing in there, or run the dishwasher with four dishes in there. It’s only when that bill fluctuates based upon the property’s usage that does that actually modify the behavior of the resident.

You want the resident to think that my, usage and my consumption is going to change my bill. Yes, you’re gonna have water leaks and yes, you’re gonna have incidences on the property. Many people move to a flat rate though because the dealing with utility billing companies, if you’re small, they won’t deal with you at all, so you have to do something.

Doing the RUBS formula isn’t necessarily so easy if you’re trying to do it yourself. . But also the service side of working with these service companies is giving them your bills. They’re giving you pre-bills back, you’re sending them. Questions back. They’re sending you questions back.

That back and forth really delays a lot of time, provides a lot of headache, and so that’s why a D I Y platform or a platform that you’re doing yourself, you’re not having that back and forth. You are dealing with it yourself. You can see immediately, did my water bill go up and change that kind of owner’s portion or commonary deduction?

You can change that on the fly. And you’re not going back and forth with a company. But doing it as a flat rate, although it sounds appealing as an owner because it sounds easy, you’re actually not incentivizing your residents to conserve. And that’s really should be the drivers. Not only do you want your residents to conserve, that brings the property bill down, but it allows them to start taking accountability for their usage and modifying their behavior because of.

Yeah. You’re absolutely right. And also I can see how it’ll be detrimental to reporting. Water issues. So if you have a runny toilet you wouldn’t report it, even though that’s the common thing we’ve seen anyways. Things report it. That’s a different story. But the reason they don’t report it is, so the funny thing is when we, my husband was really afraid oh, if we implement this, I’m gonna have all these residents leave.

And they’re gonna, but actually we didn’t have a single resident leave. What we had was a flurry of maintenance. And the maintenance request for leaky toilets or running toilets, leaky faucets, all of those things, because they realize that is going to change the amount that they have to pay.

But really, they weren’t getting us in the unit before because they were either hiding a dog or hiding additional occupants. Things that aren’t really beneficial for an owner or the community to not be aware of what’s going on. A leaky toilet can. Thousands of dollars at the end of the month just for a flapper being broken.

That’s a quick $5 fix. So you want them to, again, take that accountability and responsibility for their usage and make them, think about that when they’re using water or hearing their toilet run at night, you want them thinking about that because it will change their bill even if it fluctuates five or $10.

Yeah. That makes sense. Do you guys do value add when you buy properties or do you buy stabilize? How do, what’s your preferences? So I think it’s always really interesting to hear everyone’s strategies when they, what’s their business model. I would say as we look to transition our portfolio, we are really digging into the Florida.

Going to a lot of the multi-family events, really trying to understand the different areas. There’s a lot of learning curve when it comes to that. We do wanna transition our portfolio from more of a c class portfolio into a B class. We can sell our units, not that we’re going to right now, but we can sell our units in San Diego for three to 300 a door, 300 to three 15 a door, probably.

At a three and a half cap, four cap, we can buy units in Florida, in a B class unit for 200, a door at a five cap. It’s a completely different market. But there’s a lot of demand coming to Florida. So the way we’re looking at it in Florida is, our value. We do wanna get value add, but not in the same way a traditional kind of construction value add.

So one of the things we always look for is, are they billing their tenants? We wanna find someone who’s not billing their tenants. So it’s an immediate value add with no money out of pocket. But we do wanna do some, improvements on the property, but not heavy improvements. And then we also.

For areas that are adjacent to new development, so maybe a B class area that has some areas within there that are maybe B minus maybe even c plus. But the neighborhood is a B neighborhood, but they’re putting some big capital projects. Maybe there’s a big apartment community going in or a big commercial retail shopping area.

Adjacent to those areas because we know, and what we saw in California is when those big developments go in, these adjacent areas have a lot of pressure to improve. Whether they’re acquired for development or they just improve in the rents go up. So those are some of the things that we look for in Florida as we’re looking to acquire is adjacent to big developments.

Someone who’s not billing and maybe has a little bit of value add that we can then, take our expertise of doing construction and doing improvements and deploy that on those assets to improve okay, that’s great. In your existing portfolio. The way we value multifamily is always the same thing.

It’s a simple formula. It’s n no I divided by capric. That’s given the value. Obviously capits are significantly lower in California which increases your value. But as operators, we’re always looking at the no, I . So can you share, and especially since you guys have experienced, not only from yours, but from the bigger portfolio of the families Just a few tips and tricks to either increase income or reduce expenses.

And obviously employing rubs is one of them, right? Yeah, absolutely. But any other tips and tricks, something that works for you in a very challenging market like California? I would say that there’s a lot of areas that you can look into to increase your n o I. Some of the things that we do, we try to implement big cable deals where we’re we’re providing the cable, but we’re getting a backend credit from the cable provider as well that helps increase the noi.

We’re just now looking at whole property internet and these are things. Widely done on class A properties, but getting into C properties are not typically done as much, but as the world is changing. You can bring in wifi, you can bring in cable to help drive some of those.

N O i technologies. Rubs is a simple one, right? Take somebody who’s not doing rubs and deploy rubs and then see what else. It’s one of those things. Different industries have done this, like airlines and hospitality as there is commod commoditization of rental rates, you’re having to unbundle those rents, right?

You have to unbundle the water, the sewer the trash. You’re having to unbundle the cable unbundle. Why? If you can unbundle. , all of these things, you can actually drive n o i through these different technologies. So that’s one of our techniques that we use. We also try to improve the apartment by upgrading things whether it’s, countertops and, the vinyl plank flooring has been a big plus, and We’re not having to replace the carpet every single time.

We have a turnover. The longevity of changing materials when we do turnovers have helped us maintain higher profitability. That before it used to say, okay, 30 months was our kind of number of months that we knew. After that it. All cash flow, like we’ve already paid for the turnover.

Now that’s really come down and shortened Our time now is around 24 months of, once we pass that 24 months of, long-term tendency, we know that it’s just strictly profit after that. So we’re doing everything, whether it’s technology, whether it’s changing the materials that we use when we turn units over.

We’re looking at all of these things to improve our overall profitability, our noi. That’s great. We ask all of our guests the same questions if you could go back in time to your younger self what would be the best advice you could give? . I would say if I were to go back and tell my younger self, I would say be more aggressive with acquisitions, get the relationships right out the gate.

I think a lot of small operators don’t realize the relationships required with banks. The relationships acquired with brokers to make sure that you’re getting good deal flow in good. And not only take those relationships to. Whether it’s a line of credit, whether it’s a refinance product, use that money, be more aggressive and be more open-minded to different geographical areas.

I think we were set in stone and only investing in California, and we might’ve missed the boat in some great opportunities in some other states just because we were self-managing. So I would say, Be more open to different geographical areas for investment and be more aggressive early on.

Yeah that, that’s a good advice. Especially if you are in a not so landlord friendly state, . We would definitely, cause we’re brokers too, so we talk to investors from all over the country that want to invest in Texas and. The amount of pain that landlords are being inflicted on in states like California and Seattle and Oregon and and New York is it’s unbelievable.

And that’s why, yes, runaway, flee, escape, whatever you want to call it. Get out of there as soon as possible. You don’t have to go out physically, but get your money out of that. Get your investment into a more landlord friendly state that would help you feel a lot less pain. Make a lot more money as you say that.

Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Tiffany, I want to be conscious of your time. If anybody wants to hear more about Utility Ranger or maybe reach out and partner with you, invest with you guys, how can they find. Utility Ranger, you can go to utility ranger.com. Check out our software. We do a free 60 day trial for anybody who wants to set up their property and start taking control of their utility billing program themselves.

You can reach out to me. LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Tiffany, Mittel M I T A l. I always have to spell my last name because everyone thinks I say Mitchell, but Tiffany Mitel and I’d be happy to chat with you, tell you about what we’re doing and get you started on a utility billing program yourself.

Awesome. Yeah, and we’ll definitely put links in the show notes for all of those. Tiffany, it’s been a pleasure. I really appreciate you coming up. It definitely brought a different perspective and our audience learned about a new tool they might be able to use. So thank you for coming on the ship.

Thank you. Awesome. And for you, the audience, if you want to hear more operators talking about multifamily, just subscribe. Listen to our podcast. We’re on iTunes, teachers, Google podcast, anywhere you can consume a podcast. We’re pretty much there. Give us a review and subscribe and we’ll see you in the next episode.

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