Episode 123: Deep Dive into Multi-Family Insurance with Calvin Roberts – The Apartments Operators Podcast

In this episode of The Apartments Operators Podcast, we’re taking a deep dive into multi-family insurance. Calvin Roberts joins us to discuss the ins and outs of this important topic, from the basics of what it is to the biggest challenges that multifamily investors face when it comes to property damage and liability. We discussed what multi-family insurance is, the different types of coverage it offers, and how to find the right policy for your needs. If you’re thinking about buying or selling a multi-family property, this episode is definitely for you. Tune in to learn all you need to know about multi-family insurance!

Watch the Podcast Here

Help Us Out

Help us reach new listeners and reach a wider audience by leaving us a rate and review on iTunes. It’s quick and easy to do. Here’s how.

Thank you for your help!

Show Transcript

Welcome to the Apartment Operators Podcast, where you can learn from experienced operators what it really means to be an apartment operator. No fluff, no sugarcoating, just the raw, unfiltered truth of the ups and downs of operating multi-family communities. Welcome everybody to the Apartments Operator Podcast.

Today we have a special guest. We have Calvin here with us. Calvin is not a multi-family operator, but he is an insurance agent that specializes in multi-family, and we thought that’s gonna be bringing a lot of value to you also, Calvin, we start with just a few seconds of you introducing yourself to our audience and telling everybody who you are, what you do, and we’ll take it from.

Perfect. Hi everyone. My name is Calvin Roberts. I am the principal of Falcon Insurance Agency of Michigan. We are a national boutique commercial insurance brokerage, specializing in serving multi-family and commercial real estate investors throughout the United States. We ensure many thousands of doors in many different markets across the United States and are the go-to experts on multi-family risk management and insurance guidance.

Awesome. Okay, thank you for that. We’re recording this podcast in November of 2022 and everybody’s biggest question is, where’s the market going? What’s gonna happen? Interest of raising inflation is rising. We are in the process of learning the results of the November elections. So how is the insurance world reacting to everything that’s going on in the market?

So there’s been a lot of calamity in the commercial insurance marketplace over the last year, two years, and there’s a few factors that are really driving all the change and increase in cost from the insurance side of things. The first is the subject on everyone’s mind inflation. If you’re an insurance company and you expected to pay 200,000 in claims and because of inflation, it turns into 300,000 in claims that are actually paid.

You have to make that money back somewhere, which comes in the form of increased premiums, limiting coverage, market availability. It’s been a challenging marketplace for multi-family operators when it comes to insurance placement in the last several years, and it’s really been inflation driving much of that in addition to some of the large catastrophic claim events.

Hurricane Ian in Florida. . That are really impacting things on the insurance side. Yeah. And for the audience that is wondering why is inflation increasing the claims? If it used to cost, I don’t know, $5,000 to repair a wall or repair a replace a kitchen a couple years ago between covid changing the whole.

Logistic nightmares of shipping and the labor costs that have increased dramatically in the last few years. That’s why that same kitchen that you could have fixed four or $5,000 is not gonna cost you $10,000, which is why the insurance industry is now suffering from all that impact because, The number of claims per year, probably statistically doesn’t change, but it does change dramatically of the cost that is attached to recovering those claims from the insurance.

Am I right there? Exactly. It’s the frequency of losses has not gone up, but the scale and scope of losses when they do occur has increased fairly dramatically as a result of the cost of building materials going up, the cost of labor increasing sharply. These factors in tandem with, the ever increasing frequency and magnitude.

Large catastrophic claim events. So events like the Texas Freeze Occurrence that happened a couple years ago, , that was, that came outta the left field. From the insurance industry’s point of view. It’s a black swan event and it’s hard to predict and account for. So when events like that have occurred with greater frequency in tandem with all of the pressure on, building materials and labor when repairing damage.

It’s really a 1 2, 3 punch that is driving up premiums. Yeah, that, that black swan, we felt it the hard way here in Texas. And we have a smaller property that was built in 2007. And we suffered damage because the pipes for the fire suppression system, the sprinkler system blew up like they cracked and exploded in the attic from freezing, basically.

And it is like it’s Texas. Nobody expects these kind of things to happen in Texas, but I it did, and it was a big insurance claim, and it’s not it’s a it’s like a faucet. You can drip. This is all pressurized fire suppression systems, so yeah. Absolutely. That’s a, that’s another, like you said, another combo punch that came out of the blue and they didn’t see the damage coming.

and it’s impacting. And of course, insurance companies are a business. They’re not charitable organizations. So if they have increasing costs, they have to pass it on to their customer, which unfortunately is us, the operators, right? . So let’s talk about maybe a little bit of ways you’ve seen operators.

Try to reduce the costs and then dos and don’ts, right? Where is it wise to reduce the costs and where is it not really wise to reduce the costs? So there are a few things that we can do. The biggest is goes back to the saying that a ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So by getting very proactive about your organizational risk management, you can help to.

Further increases in premium by keeping your market access available, by making yourself a attractive client for an insurance company. So one of the key things I suggest to all of my multi-family groups is that we require renter’s insurance for all of our residents. And if the tenant fails to provide their own, or maybe they stop paying after a month or two, and while it lapses, You can do something like a master tenant liability program where, let’s say we have a thousand doors and maybe 700 of them either don’t provide their own insurance or they stop providing their own insurance, they let it cancel, that kind of thing.

You can implement a master tenant liability program, so something like a hundred thousand or 300,000 liability. That would respond as a first resort type of claim in the event that, one of our tenants is cooking dinner one night and, maybe they worked a long day, maybe a 10, 12 hour shift and decided to crack open into a couple beers while cooking dinner and they go to lay down on the couch while that oven is, cooking and it turns into a nice little 8,000 thousand dollars.

Claim as a result of the kitchen combusting by having that master tenant liability program in place that keeps that claim off of your claim history. Meaning that instead of this turning into a claim on our own policy, it turns into a claim on either the tenant’s, renter’s insurance, or on the tenant master liability program.

. So it reduces our loss ratio over a several year period. It makes it so that you’re able to fit into the best risk pool possible. Nobody can prevent the large catastrophic apartment building burns to the ground fire, but you can cut down on the high frequency, medium intensity losses that come out of tenant negligence with such a program so that makes it so you are able to fit into the best possible risk.

Meaning that you’ll get the best insurance placement available. The most attractive companies who they have the tightest underwriting on their insurance. , you are able to qualify for them, whereas you might not be able to, if last year we had 10 kitchen fire losses. I could have otherwise been, not prevented, but shifted to someone else’s policy other than your.

So it’s a proactive approach to keeping the total cost of risk down over a several year period. And by implementing such a tenant liability master program, operators are able to make insurance into not just a expense, but the revenue generating opportunity for their organization. And I’ll give you an example.

I, I recently did one for a group in Michigan, Ohio that has right around 3000 doors under manage. And of those 3000 doors, 924 were, non-compliant with the renter’s insurance requirement. So without such a master liability program in place, there would be nothing but the operator’s first party coverage that would respond to a tenant negligence fire loss, as an example.

Their cost per door per month was right around $7 and 22 cents for this product. For a hundred thousand liability coverage, they might charge the president 13 or $14 a month, to hopefully persuade them to buy their own third party coverage. . And if they don’t, then, it becomes a scenario where they’re making six, $7 per door per.

You multiply that by 924 doors and we’re looking at a very reasonable profit center for this organiz. Yeah, so I’m gonna try to break it down and for our listeners and correct me if I’m saying something wrong here. So the opportunity with the renter’s insurance is, has multiple facets, right?

, first of all, if you force your. Residents to have insurance, right? That decreases the op The chances that you’ll have small claims throughout the years, which means as a, as an insured person, you’ll start having a good history of not claiming you’ll have a history from your policy, right?

You’ll have a strong case of, look, I’m making all my to have insurance, right? And in case anything happens, right? Even if it’s something major. That policy could put in that tenant policy if it’s resulted by something that started in, in, in their fault, could cover your deductible, right? That’s the word.

Exactly. So attractiveness to the insurance carriers. Something that covers your deductible. That’s another thing. Reducing the amount of interaction you have with your own insurance is always a good thing. And then lastly, the whole profit center that comes from being able to charge if they don’t have the insurance.

And I know a lot of the owners, they operators are doing that these days. They force it. And we actually have a much higher number in the contract because we really are not interested in making this a big profit center. We are interested in making sure everybody has the coverage. So we actually put $50 a month, right?

We, when the, in reality, they should only pay any, I don’t know, up to $20 a month realistically from any of the insurance carriers out there. I also know that there. Like companies like e premiums, which were not sponsored by, so it’s not like that. That will basically have some kind of a deal with the operator that says, okay, every referral we get, every resident of yours that is signing up for us.

You’ll get a little kickback at the end of the month and. When I spoke with you over the phone, you mentioned that program that you guys have, and that sounded even more attractive. So instead of just getting like a one, $2 per person, you get. to charge whatever you want. And then you have a fixed cost from the insurance, which I think you said seven and $7 and some cents.

So that’s another fantastic opportunity to create a new revenue center over there and just not just tell them they have to, but also tell them, look, I’m gonna give it to you at this price, which will be competitive against every other insurance agency. So definitely there’s multiple facets in this thing.

Did I miss anything? No that’s perfect and very comprehensive. Okay. Awesome. So we’ve learned something new here, right? We’ve learned that we can do that. So let’s keep going with this. The do’s and don’ts, right? It’s like where are the corners that you’ve seen operators try to cut that you should not be cutting those corners.

So I commonly see on deals that are. controlled by a insurance broker who maybe doesn’t do a ton of multi-family. They might have one or two big clients, and that’s pretty much all that they focus on within this space. Maybe they mostly write home an auto insurance, but they happen to walk out and write a big account.

In the multi-family space, one of the big things I’m constantly fixing are policies that. Outside of the minimum insurable value based on the co-insurance threshold for a policy. And what that means is, and I’ll use a property in the Midwest, maybe Michigan as an example here. Let’s say you buy a building in metro Detroit for $400,000.

It’s a eight unit apartment building. Maybe, let’s call it 7,000 square feet. The replacement cost of that building, just for easy numbers, let’s say might. , I don’t know, a million dollars. And we paid 400,000 as the purchase price. The actual retail value of the property. . So you tell your agent, oh I’d toure it for the $400,000 that we just paid for it, and we want replacement cost coverage because we don’t want any depreciation coming into play in a claim scenario.

And a lot of agents might say, sure, we can do that. . And the reason why that’s a bad idea is because the overwhelming majority of commercial property insurance policies stipulate that you must ensure to a minimum percentage of the actual rebuild value. So if we have the standard 80% co-insurance clause, in this example policy, that million dollar to completely rebuild building that we paid 400,000 for on the open.

The minimum we can insure that for with replacement cost while settlement is 800,000, 80% of the actual cost to completely rebuild through the tornado, come through and wipe it off the map. Now, if we were toure it for the 400,000 that we had purchased it for in a claim scenario, let’s say a $200,000 claim.

Math would look like. You divide the amount of coverage you have. 400,000 by the minimum inable value. 80% of CO of the replacement cost 800,000, meaning that we’re left with a 50% co-insurance penalty in this example. So in a $200,000 fire loss, we would have 50% of the loss amount reduced from our claim settlement a hundred.

Oh. in addition to our deductible, let’s say 5,000, meaning that we would get a check for $95,000 to repair, $200,000 worth of damage, we’re paying over a hundred grand outta pocket on a medium sized loss. So that’s probably the most common issue I’m fixing on policies, especially with inflation driving up the replacement cost of buildings so significantly over the past two years and it’s something to where I think it’s better to write a policy that is within the minimum insurable value, generally 80% of replacement costs.

And to do that with maybe a higher deductible than we had planned. Maybe we were doing 10,000 deductible. , but we’re gonna do a 25,000 deductible, but we know that is a known stop loss amount rather than the co-insurance penalty effectively working out as a silent percentage deductible that we don’t see until the claim actually happens.

Okay? There was a lot of technical stuff in, in, in your answer over there. So I’m gonna try to simplify that. I just happen to understand a bit in this, in the whole insurance world, because I’ve learned these things the hard way, unfortunately, and I can give my example in a minute, but for the most part, if you bought a building for $400,000, but it’s gonna cost me, let’s say, burnt to the.

And I’m gonna have to rebuild it. It’s gonna cost me a million dollars, right? So this is the replacement value. And when you look at things and you go, okay, I only need insurance for $400,000, cuz if it burns to the ground, I get my money back and I’m happy. That’s true, but let’s say just half the building burned to the ground, burned right now you have, let’s say a $200,000 claim.

The insurance company is going to, excuse my language here, but they’re gonna screw you over. by saying, no, you should have insured it over here. You insured it over here. Now I’m gonna make that little math trick of mine to basically say, you should have insured it, double that cost. So I’m gonna give you half the returns.

. And now you are in a place where it didn’t burn to the ground so you can get your money and move on. But it’s not like I covered it for $400,000. So any damage up to $400,000, I’m gonna get my. No. They find ways to avoid paying you because that’s what insurance care insurance carriers do for a living is avoid pain.

, that’s how they make money. So you really want to understand the difference between your replacement value and your actual coverage and what happens when there is partial crime because it’s very simple when it’s a total loss. , you will get that $400,000, right? But anything partial, they have math and they have equations, and they have those little clauses in the policy that nobody ever sees, right?

. So think about it and go look at your emails. When you talk to your insurance agent, they usually only send you the declaration pages, right? Just the certificates just shows the. They don’t send you the full policy unless you specifically requested, and when you do, you get 300 pages of legal language and in that 300 pages of legal language are buried all kind of opportunities to avoid paying you money.

So you can go the hard way and literally, The whole thing, the whole 300 pages, so you’ll know exactly where the gotchas are, right? Or you have to lean on a honest insurance agent that will most tell you most of those things, but not all of those things. One of the things that we’ve learned the hard way.

Is, we mentioned the big Texas storm a few minutes ago, and we had a property, not the one I was telling you before about that had a bunch of units flooded, and then one of the buildings was mostly vacant. , so we didn’t have electricity on in those units. And somewhere in those 300 pages of legal language, there’s a clause that says that if there’s no electricity or heat in that unit, , if you have any damage from freezing pipes, it’s not covered.

But it’s not something that when you call your insurance agent and say, Hey, I got a multi-family property. I wanna put insurance. If you’re in Texas, they’re not gonna tell you you gotta have electricity on, or you gotta have heat on if you wanna be covered against frozen pipes.

Yeah. Nobody will tell you these things that there’s a lot of. places in those policies that listening to a good, honest insurance agent is gonna save you a lot of money and a lot of heartburn. Really . On the after fact of things. Yeah. No, I agree completely. It comes down to you need to work with someone who is knowledgeable within this space, not just commercial insurance, but specifically within the multi-family and commercial real estate.

because, I look at it this way. I do a ton of multi-family properties. That is my specialty, that’s what I focus on. But if someone came to me and they had a manufacturing company, mom and pop privately owned that was doing 75 mil revenue, I’m gonna try to bid that, see what I can do. But it’s also outside of where my experience and principal.

College is within the field. So you could realistically find a better result from someone who specializes in manufacturing as an example to where I would probably just decline the quote if I can’t do something well, I’d rather be upfront about it and just say, it sucks. I love to work with you and this is a great opportunity, but you can be better served elsewhere.

And again to mention something you said earlier, all those opportunities with the renter’s insurance to, to reduce your total premium cost by getting those better insurance carriers or, get more coverage for your money or get the same coverage for less money. Every dollar that we save on the insurance cost is gonna be straight into the noi.

And increase our property value. , it’s a fine balance between where can I save money versus how much coverage do I have? But it is when you get the same coverage for less money because you did all these things, then you or you find the right insurance agent, or you find the right carrier, then that’s money that goes straight to the bottom lines to the No, I And obviously N NOI impacts property value.

Absolutely. And by working with someone, is knowledgeable. Within this space, you can generally find, assuming that there is an opportunity to improve on the account, a better premium with better coverage. Now I go to the example of a middle market account. I wrote last year with around 1100 doors in Michigan and Ohio, and they were with one of the big top 100 national agencies previously.

But to them that other. , this insured was just another big account. They have lots of middle market accounts, so they weren’t getting a ton of, personalized service or dedicated thought and effort into the account a account, several orders of magnitude with demand from such an agency.

I came in and I was able to bring their total insurance spend down right around 22%. Year over year, and we went from actual cash value across the entire portfolio to, I wrote replacement costs on probably 75% of the portfolio with the remaining properties as a AC b, just because that’s how it was before, and they wanted to keep those locations ACB to keep the cost down.

, help with the NOI on those locations. But I was able to come in and reduce their total insurance spend by right around $70,000 a. And massively, that’s a lot of money. Their coverage. Yeah. Which that translates into another acquisition every year or two, yeah. So it’s a lot of cash flow that has been freed up by revisiting the account with, truthfully, someone who wanted it more than the existing broker.

. Yeah. Here’s another, Gotcha clause that the insurance agency love to do with the A C V A ACV stands for actual cash value. For example, if you have a roof and the roof is 15 years old and the lifespan of a roof is 30 years and you have a claim on it, now all of a sudden you only get half.

, right? Because the roof has been half his life already done. So you are replacing a, a roof that is 15 years old. There it is. So know your property, know your roof’s, age, know your, all your other components age, because a c v actually means you’re gonna get less when there is time to do a claim.

Exactly they come with that, those appreciation penalty. And it’s just, it’s not with is expected by million investors cuz they’re thinking I got ACB coverage. I want to base it off close to the retail value of the property. I didn’t wanna insure twice. But then when the claim happens and they’re paying half the loss or more out of pocket, I mean that stings.

Yeah, that, that’s big. And again, same comments just from the other side of things. That goes straight to you. I know why. And impacted in just the hard the wrong way. . So I have a note that you mentioned something about no drugs on premises. What is that about? So I think it’s a good idea to have several.

Written into your lease in conjunction with speaking with counsel. The first would be, if you’re renting residential multi-family properties to individuals or families, it’s a good idea to stipulate in the lease that there are no illegal drugs that will be kept on premises. . And the main motivation behind that is that let’s say your resident has a friend come, , maybe it’s an 18 year old kid that you’re running to, and one of his buddies from high school comes over and maybe they’re doing illegal substances that they shouldn’t be, and the friend who is visiting overdoses and passes away, they could try to come pointing fingers at yourself, the multifamily operator saying that you were negligent in renting to this person.

So by having something like that strictly written into the. , it gives you something to stand behind should something like this, unfortunately make its way to a jury trial. . So it’s rather than in a nightmare scenario like that, trying to fumble together a defense, it gives you something concrete to where you said, don’t do this.

And they ignored you. They wrote the rules rather than, , it never being addressed in the lease. . So I think it’s a good idea to have a no illegal drugs clause in the lease. I also think it’s a very good idea, especially if you have, a parking lot for your apartment building where residents can park and store their vehicles.

and I actually took this idea from a large national property group, McKinley Properties, who I read through their entire lease agreement, took notes on things I thought would be good to implement elsewhere. , and I’m presuming that over the last six decades that they’ve been in business with, around 60,000 doors under management.

They’ve probably learned these things the hard way from experience . Yeah, but I think it’s a good idea to write into your lease that if a resident intends to park their own vehicle on premises, that the landlord and property management company and building owner are expressly not liable for any damages.

Theft, a tree branch from a neighboring property pulling on the car. If something like that happens and they do not have their own insurance and maybe they needed that vehicle to get to and from work and this caused a real problem for them, they’re going to come pointing fingers every which way, and they’re most likely gonna come after the landlord because, hey, the landlord has all this money type of approach, especially with their attorney egging them on.

, but. stipulating, you are expressly not liable for damages that occur to the resident’s personal auto kept on premises. It helps to diffuse those kinds of situations before they even have a chance to make it to court. Because if your attorney and this person, a resident of an apartment complex comes into your office and says, Hey, the a tree that was hanging above my car that I parked.

had a branch fall over in a windstorm and it toed my car. I wanna sue the landlord. They’re probably gonna ask for a copy of the tenant lease agreement. , and they see that you are expressly not liable in claiming as such, and that you encourage them to purchase their own insurance with comprehensive and collision coverage.

It might dissuade someone like that from taking this case on a contingency basis rather than it’s just not being addressed in the lease. . Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So we talked about the renter’s insurance. We talked about the landlord’s insurance. What about other entities that are on or around our properties, like vendor suppliers and so on.

What’s your thoughts about that? There’s a couple thoughts. I’m a big believer in not hiring a, a lawn care company or a snow removal company. Unless they prove that they are insured properly. So on the general liability side, you want to be named a additional insured so that if the arborist you hire to trim a tree accidentally knocks it over or otherwise does damage to someone else’s property, that their insurance would respond with a mutual defense clause protecting your organization rather than that turning into two insurance.

One on the vendor’s insurance and another on your property policy. So it again, keeps these claims from going onto your history, falls back onto the responsible party’s insurance and their insurance would have a duty to defend your organization. So I think that’s really a full stop requirement if you’re going to be hiring contractors who will be on premises.

You hire an electrician who maybe does a not great. working on the electrical of the building and it causes a fire and maybe someone passes away in that fire, that could turn into a claim on your insurance as well. But it’s better if it falls back onto the, responsible party in this scenario.

So I think It’s a good idea. Really, it should be a full requirement that any vendors will be working on or servicing your property. Should have their own general liability insurance and name yourself as a additional insured. And you should also require that they have a copy of worker’s compensation.

So get a certificate of that has to be named an additional interest on that for rep purposes. That way at the end of the year on maybe your property management company’s workers’ comp audit, when they ask, Hey, did you hire any contractors over the last year? You can say yes, but they proved they had their own workers’ compensation insurance.

That way, that doesn’t become premium, that you are responsible for paying because your worker’s comp policy would otherwise pick that up. Yep. That makes total sense. Okay. Are there any. Tips, tricks, suggestions you have for our listeners before we wrap these things up. There’s one other concept that is, it’s becoming more popular over the last several years with the insurance marketplace hardening, and that is a captive insurance program with a captive.

You are the insurance company, it’s a licensed insurance entity, and it really works best for those organizations who. Hey, I pay a half million in premium or greater, and we’ve only filed one claim in the last five years. It was for $50,000. We don’t really have claims like that. We were on the tight ship.

Maybe we have sprinklers in our buildings. We have fire extinguishers and we implement risk management best practices that. make us a desirable insurance account. , a captive insurance program is an entity to where it is controlled by the member. So you would essentially own an insurance company for your own self use purposes.

And this doesn’t work with everyone, but if you’re paying right around the half million in premium or greater, and you have a significantly better than average loss experience, maybe your loss ratio, the. Claims paid out, money paid out in claims, versus the amount premium that you pay is somewhere around 20% paid out versus what you pay in a captive would probably make sense for you depending on the scale that you’re at.

And it works well for the captive owner in two ways. One being that you keep the underwriting profit, premium minus claims that you pay into this captive and. You keep the investment income that is generated. So it’s like how Berkshire Hathaway made most of their money, not necessarily on the profit from underwriting, premium minus claims, but that they have all this money and cash flow coming in that is otherwise being invested until it’s.

Used to settle claims at a later date. So you can really profit from those two avenues and make this into not an expense for your organization, but a another potential revenue center that you can Yeah. The double end in it basically. It’s interesting I’ve seen the captive insurance work in small things like ensuring the cars, ensuring their office supplies and, electronics and stuff like, I haven’t seen anyone do that on the larger real estate side of things because one catastrophic event and you’re underwater, right?

So it’s kinda like to pay half a million dollars in insurance, you gotta have multiple tens of millions of dollars of real estate, right? One of them goes on the ground and you need about 10 years worth of that half a million to cover the issue. So it’s kinda it’s a risk reward factor then in that case it’s a high risk and for something like that, you can help to balance the risk by purchasing reinsurance for your captive. So reinsurance is okay. Yeah. Okay. It’s insurance for insurance companies. So for example, I’m just making numbers up for hypothetical here, but let’s say State Farm has. A reinsurance treaty that triggers after 5 billion in hurricane losses over a calendar year.

If one year they have a bad season and they pay out 10 billion in claims, they would get that 5 billion after their, initial threshold is met, return to them by a third party Reiner. So your Munich re, your aig, there’s lots of reinsurance companies. You could. Purchase the voids of London Reinsurance Treaty or something along those lines.

That’s definitely an interesting concept for the more the larger companies out there, right? So I’m sure some of them will reach out and say, Hey, talk to me. It’s interesting. . So in just to respect your time and our audience, anything you would like to say before we wrap up? Or where can our audience find you?

If they wanna reach out, they wanna talk insurance, they wanna get a quote, maybe get a list of those. Good to know. Add these to your least kind of clause. How can they reach you? My email address is Calvin, spelled like Kel Klein, c a l v i. At Falcon i n s short for insurance agency.com, and if they are inclined, I’m available on LinkedIn, Facebook, you can reach me a quite a variety of ways and I’m incredibly responsive.

Awesome. We’ll put the links in the show notes as well, Calvin. That was very educational. I’ve learned a lot. I hope I have learned some things as well. Thank you so much for coming up on the show. Oh, thank you very much again for having me. It was my honor and pleasure. Awesome, and for you, the audience, if you want to hear more about multifamily, please go give us a review.

Doesn’t matter, one star, five star. Just give us a review you feel is right on iTunes, on Stitcher, on SoundCloud, wherever you consume your podcast and subscribe. We’re looking forward to another episode coming up soon. Awesome. Thank you again very much. Hope you have a great day.

Thank you for listening to our show. If you want to enjoy more episodes, please subscribe on iTunes, YouTube, Stitcher, or SoundCloud for questions or feedback. And please visit our site@www.aptopr.com.