Episode 117: Why choose a 3rd party management with Brian Hamrick - The Apartments Operators Podcast

Welcome everybody to the Multifamily Operators podcast. This is Joseph Kaza, your host, and today we have Brian Hamrick with us. Brian, thank you for coming to on the show. Hey, Joseph, it’s great to be here.

Thanks for inviting me. Awesome. We start every podcast with our guests, introducing themself, telling our audience a little bit about themselves and what they’ve done. Thank you. My name is Brian Hamrick. My company is Hamrick Investment Group and we invest in residential apartments.

We have 370 units here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I also invest in self storage, performing a non-performing notes office. And we’re just about to start 120 unit development, 120 unit apartment unit development here in Grand Rapids. Asset manage over 32 million in value. And I’m just excited to be here and talk about operating my real estate.

Awesome, man. Congratulations on the new project. I haven’t heard about that one. We’ll dive into it a little bit later. So one of the things that we’ve always liked to ask our guests is how they run their operations, right? Are you use self-managing? Are you using a third. . Which way do you guys.

Yeah, so I made the decision early on to hire third party property management. I, when I bought my first 12 unit here in Grand Rapids, there was that moment when I thought, you know what? I could do this myself. And then the more I thought about it, after about five minutes, I’m like, Nope, I don’t wanna do it.

I would be terrible at it. It’s best if I hire a pro a. Third party property management. I interviewed a bunch of different companies, found one that I really like, and they helped me build my first 70 unit portfolio. Awesome. And they, do they manage all your 300 plus units? No. At one, at some point I got to a point where the numbers just started going down.

I, I around 20 14, 20. When I should have been making money hand over fists because rents were rising, my numbers were getting worse and worse, and I really had to dig into it with them to find out what was going on. Could not get the right answer. And I ended up moving on to a different property management company and they now manage my entire portfolio, which is roughly 370.

Gotcha. And you’re on the second one. Let’s dig a little bit deeper into that one. So what are you looking for when you hire a third party property management? What was your criteria? What is important to you? How do you make that decision? So I, what I’m at its very basic core, you’re looking for someone to add to your team who’s really going to bring value to your team, and to me, managing those properties managing those units I want someone who knows how to manage the type of units that I already own.

Most of my units, all of my units are at least 40 to a hundred years. Here in Grand Rapids. So I want someone who understands how to do that. I was looking at the time when I moved on to the second property management company. I was looking to grow my portfolio to buy larger apartment complexes.

So I specifically chose a company that manages larger apartment complexes as well as the smaller multi-families, cuz I have everything from duplex. All the way up to a 207 unit apartment community. What’s very important to me is that they have an on-staff maintenance team. Because what I found is that when companies sub out their maintenance work you don’t get that special attention that you do if the maintenance company works for your property management company because they will go and if they are there to fix one thing, say the stove isn’t working.

and they see that there’s a leak in the tub, they’re gonna fix that as well. If it’s a sub, that doesn’t always happen. They might write it up and say, Hey, you need to look at this, but then you gotta send someone back out at a different time. Yeah. Cuz the maintenance guy, I know he’s gonna get a phone call at 2:00 AM and he doesn’t want to take that call.

Yeah. Let’s head it off is out there. Exactly. Plus you also have the financial side of things, if they sub a new sub, then now you have to pay profit margins. So the more we can keep those maintenance expenses down and get it all with, in one fell swoop the better the bottom line is gonna look.

You got it to continue. I got a couple more things. One is the leasing is very important. How quickly can they release units, turn the units market those units to get the best quality tenants? And then also the accounting systems. You know what’s the software management system that they’re using?

The company that I work with green Property Management, they use AppFolio. . And I really like that it’s real time. I am able to go in, I could look at it right now online and see exactly how my properties are performing today, what’s the occupancy, what’s the delinquency what are the bills that are being paid?

And I have real time access to that, which I really appreciate. Yeah it’s much better than somebody uploading a statement at the end of the month and by then it’s like too late to react to. Yeah, exactly. I want to know, I don’t wanna know 40 days after the fact or 30 days after the fact.

I want to know at least, weekly time. Yeah. But real time is the best way. Awesome. So how do you work with that third party property management? Do you talk to them daily, weekly, monthly? Who do you talk to at the property management company? Give us a little bit of an insight of how do you work.

So the company that green Property Management, who I manages all my properties here in Grand Rapids, I work with them on a pretty consistent basis. I wouldn’t say daily but at times I’ve worked with them daily. When we take over property and there’s always something going on I’ll work with them daily.

Preferably, it might be. We have a monthly meeting about our properties, go over the numbers talk about the budget for the next month or several months, what does the rent roll look like? How do we get occupancy up? So we do have those monthly meetings, and then we ha I can call anyone in the company.

I have a maintenance question I can get ahold of the maintenance guy. If I have a leasing question, I can either send an email or call the leasing agent at the property. It’s a co. Communication, but we only have one monthly meeting scheduled. Gotcha. Okay. So basically mostly ad hoc with a monthly reoccurring.

Yeah, ad hoc, really just depending on where are we is the property stabilized and just humming along, or are we under some sort of project and we have to have constant communication about expenses and progress. How about onsite visits? Do you do those? How often do you do. Yeah, so for my smaller properties, my two units, my four units up to my 37 unit, I might go there twice a year if everything is looking good.

If the numbers look good I’ll drive by the property when I’m in the area just to look and check on it. But on my larger properties, I have a 96 and a 207 unit with them as well. I’m going there at least once a. because I wanna walk the grounds, I wanna walk through the interior. I wanna see, how is it being kept up?

Does it look clean, presentable? Do I see any issues that might crop up? And it just gives me the opportunity as well to take photos from my investors so that they can see, okay, this is what the property looks like as of a week ago. Yeah. And what you mentioning resonates with my personal experie.

The bigger the property, the more attention it needs. So there’s more often conversations, there’s more often looking at the budget and tracking the numbers. And there’s more often onsite visits. And then the smaller ones, especially the twos and threes and fours, those barely get any attention. Yeah.

But again, that’s also because they usually have less turnovers and less fluctuations over the. . Yeah. And also if you just look at ’em as individual businesses, your two unit is really not that big a business in the whole scheme of things. Yeah. But if you have a 96 unit apartment complex, now you have a multi-million dollar business and you have to pay a lot more attention to that.

Yep, absolutely. So you mentioned that you switched to property management company and we had to go through something very similar at some point. , what are those benchmarks that you were tracking in order to recognize wait a second, something is not going well, and what were the questions? You didn’t get the right answers to

questions were, why are my maintenance expenses getting so much higher? Why are is our eviction rate increas? Why is it that our rents are not increasing when we’re in, in, in 2014? 2015? Rents were skyrocket. Yep. So why am I not benefiting from that as well? And What, why can’t you answer my questions in the first place?

I wasn’t getting good answers. And I, I wanna, this was a company that helped me build my original portfolio, and I really wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, but at the end of the day, I just wasn’t getting the answers. The numbers weren’t improving. My, my profit, my net profit was decreasing and there was no reasonable explanation why.

And I just, Realize, you know what? As tough as it is, I need to make it make a switch. And I’m glad I did because as soon as I moved over to the new property management company, green, which is Green Property Management Company, they turned it around within six months I was back making the same if not better profit than I that I had been.

Yeah. And I think there’s a really good lesson in there. That’s a lesson that I learned also the hard way is that, is there is some kind of an emotional attachment to the first company that you work with. And in many cases they were there and taught us a lot of things and held our hand a lot of things.

But at the end of the day, it’s a. and if the numbers are not working out and they can’t improve and they don’t do enough to try to improve, you gotta cut your losses as soon as you can. I would give an advice and you tell me what you think about that is put a clock on it, right? As soon as the conversations are starting and that things are not going the direction you want to.

I would tell the property management company, okay, you have 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, whatever the comfort level you have with them, right? And put a clock on it so you can track it, and then at that date you gotta cut. I ended up doing that but it took me a little bit too long. To get to that point.

And I regret not doing that sooner. There’s a cost to switching management companies. It’s not like you can just fire them and then immediately start up with someone else. They’re, when I switched from my previous management company, I had to pay out the leases. I had to pay out what they would’ve made on the leases that they had put in place, and that cost me about $10,000 right there.

So that, that’s a big cost that you have to psychologically overcome and say , not only am I firing them, but I’m also paying them 10, $10,000 outta my pocket, contractually. And then there’s the emotional cost. You feel an obligation to them because they ha if you’re in a good, you were in a good enough situation with your management company that you had to manage multiple properties, it sounds . And that’s cause at one point they were doing a very good job. and there, so you feel that obligation to, to respect and honor that relationship. But at some point you’re right, it is business and you have to take that emotion out of it. Yeah. One more lesson is don’t create contracts that make you pay if you have to fire them.

Yeah. Yeah. Look at your yeah. Your management contract and Yeah. They’re putting tenants in. I had to respect that because they put tenants in place for say, 12. And they’re, they expected to make their 8% or whatev 10% or whatever they were making over that 12 month period. So that might be a Michigan thing.

That’s not how we do business in Texas. Yeah. You guys are totally different in Texas. . Yeah. If you’re not performing, I’m gonna fire you. And I’m not gonna pay you for non-performance. That’s not gonna happen. Yeah. But, okay. So a lot of the people we talk to, Have either transitioned already or plan on transitioning to self-management at some point.

Is that something you’ve considered? Is that something on your radar at all, or is that something you say, I’ll never do that. Now I will never do that, and I’ll tell you why. Because I don’t want the headache. I don’t want to have employees, I control 32 million in assets. It doesn’t mean I own 32 million.

It means I control it. I have investors, I have lenders but I’m a one man band. I don’t have employees. I work outta my home office. and I have a reasonable lifestyle where I can spend time on the weekends with my family. I can spend, I have dinner with my family every night. I’m not constantly at work.

Even though I am constantly working , I think I’m not constantly at work having to worry about what my employees are doing. I much prefer, even though I know I’m leaving money on the table, I much prefer to hire third party management c. Contractors. I prefer to have strategic rockstar partners in all my different endeavors who do a lot of the heavy lifting, and in some cases have their own staff and employee.

But I very intentionally set up my life to, to not have that stress and headache of having to build and employ people, build a team, and employ people. That I then am responsible. . I can totally respect that. And we’ve held off as, as long as we could. But for us, and a lot of the people we spoke with, it, it’s never about money.

It’s, you’re right, that the brain damage property management brings to the table is not worth the money it generates cuz the, it’s not a profit center for us. But it does allow us to have a lot more control. So there’s a trade off there. We’ll talk when you hit 1500. And I’d love to revisit that question with you.

But for now I totally understand where you’re coming from. I was there as well. And we just, we were cornered into setting up our own property management company, basically. Yeah. It sounds like you were in a situation where you had to fire your previous one, and you probably could not find someone who would do it as well as you would expect it to be done.

Yep. That’s exactly what it was. We fired our second one, and then we said, okay. I. Taking another gamble on the third one. We’re just gonna bite the bullet into it ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. But, and then you mentioned the brain damage, and that’s exactly what I wanna avoid but I, but yeah, kudos to you for pulling it together.

Yeah. As an asset manager, we don’t get down all the way to the daily operation of the property. But there’s always the ability to influence from the outside. One of the things that we, I would like to ask is when you come in and you guys do value add projects, right? Yes. The goal in the value add project is come in, buy an underperforming property, increased income, reduce expenses, and make the property value a lot more than either refi or sell whatever the strategy.

we ask the same questions over and over to our experienced operators because we always learn new things, right? And that’s what this podcast is all about is helping new operators and experienced operators learn new methods and new ideas. So on the income side of things, we’ll get to the expense in a minute.

But on the income side of things, other than the normal increased rent or implement utility charge. What are the kind of things that you guys like to do that either generates new income stream or increase the income in existing line items? You took away my big one, which is utility chargebacks.

But I do wanna say something about that because there, for the longest time, a lot of the properties I invest in here do not have split utilities both on the smaller level. And then the 96 unit we bought does not have split utilities. So we are paying that. And for the longest time we thought we’ll just.

eat the cost of that and charge a higher rent to, to compensate for it. But within the past two years, we’ve decided, no, let’s do a utility charge back. Because the resident, they separate that in their mind. They know that if they go somewhere else, they’re gonna pay utilities separately. So we should also charge them separately.

So anyone who is listening to this, who is not doing U rubs resident utility build back system. You should con highly consider it because it will bring more money in and and also help offset those utility costs. So even I know that’s a typical one, but I did have to change my mindset on that.

Things that we do are. Additional, anytime we can get additional fees for parking has now become because some of our properties are near downtown we know of some units where people are paying $150 a month to have parking. So we have monetized our parking in some respects.

In, in the case of our 96 unit, we’ve included it in that rubs fee. So it’s, even though it’s not technically a utility, it’s more like a resort type fee. , it’s gonna include your parking. A lot of these, our 96 unit is seven stories tall, and when we bought it, you’d see a lot of those air conditioning units hanging outside the window.

, and we banned those. So you cannot have an air conditioning unit in the window. What we do allow them to do is rent from us for $50 a month. A high efficiency like floor air conditioning unit that vents out the. Gotcha. So it’s got a little vent, but it sits on the floor, and that has brought in some additional income.

We have institute instituted a system. That really is more deliberate about when on move out the turnover costs and how much of that can we build back to the resident, get out of their security deposit. And you have to be somewhat deliberate about that because it’s very easy to just say, oh we spent $200 for paint.

we’ll deduct that from your security deposit. No, we go through and we itemize everything, whether it’s blinds, doorknobs, things like that and add that up to be deducted from their security deposit. Yeah we do exactly the same thing. We have a price sheet. And that says this is how much you charge for the blinds and the flooring and the carpet cleaning and so on.

And we actually give that to the resident. It’s part of their lease package, so they’ll know when they get out what they’re gonna get charged for. Yeah. Yeah and a lot of people don’t realize, but the other income line items are really significant in the multifamily world because, when you.

A duplex, a two unit, and you have a resident leave every three years. It seems insignificant, but when you have you have 96 units and let’s just say only 20 of them decide to rent the $50 a month a AC that you offer, that’s a thousand bucks a month. That’s $12,000 a year. And with a, with whatever cap rate you guys are running at, it’s hundreds of thousands of dollars to the property.

just because you offer that service. These are really. I got another big one you just made me think of. Go for it. Laundry. So on my smaller units up to my 37 unit, I’ve purchased the laundry machines, the coin operated commercial laundry machines. And that income really helps improve our bottom line and our net operating income.

And. Therefore the value of the property. Now, on that same 96 unit, we inherited a 10 year laundry contract, , where we’re getting half, roughly half the income, but someone else owns the machines and is maintaining the machines for us. I am I’d love to get your opinion on this, but I am seriously considering purchasing eight washer and dryer units.

To just replace the contract that we have when it comes due at the beginning of next year. Yeah. So we have properties with both lease or owned. And on one hand there’s pros and cons both ways, right? On one hand you get to collect the income. But you also are responsible for the maintenance of the machines and the dryers and if anything breaks, you gotta make sure somebody comes out and fix it and bear the cost.

And every few years you’re gonna have to replace the machines, upgrade the machines, and so on. On the other hand when you are the one signing the contract of, with the con, the. Usually in Texas, it’s called Coin Mac, right? Or SDS or any one of those service providers, they’ll give you a very big upfront bonus when you do the math.

That upfront bonus is good for a few years, , right? So you really have to they make it very attractive. They also tell you, you’ll get a piece of the action. But my experience in talking to other operators, that piece is usually very minimal compared to what you could. So I’d say look at the property, look at the history what they collect versus what you’ll have in your pocket when you give it away to an operator.

And that’s where the decision factor is made, right? If the operator gives you enough upfront fee to cover for the next 10 years or the next five years, and you plan on selling in three, go with the operator, right? But if what they’re gonna give you is gonna be half of what you can make on your.

you might, it might be worth spending the money and getting the machine. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great breakdown. Thanks. I know on our 207 unit, when we signed that contract, they gave us $45,000. There you go. And for a 10 year contract. So that’s not bad. It’s nice to have that money in your pocket up front.

The question is, what would you get monthly, right? From the machines on the 207 unit, if you get a thousand dollars or 2000, , that means they paid for two and a half years upfront. Yeah. And that’s about right. That’s about how the math worked out. Yeah. And again, sometimes you need that upfront money.

Sometimes you already budgeted the CapEx to buy the machine, so might as well just buy the machine and run with it. Pros and cons depends on your exit strategy, on your hold strategy, on the financial situation you are. . Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree that. And one, one other income item can be rooftop income.

When we bought our, the, our 96 unit there was a there, there was rooftop income in place from a T-Mobile cell tower. Okay. Which went away shortly after we bought it. , unfortunately. But there that, there’s that type of income to look into too. But you need a good attorney. This cell.

Cellular companies will come to you and say, Hey, we’d like to locate a tower on your building. Is that a high rise? It’s a seven story, so it’s one of the taller buildings in its area. Okay very specific to like core urban areas. When you have high rises and mid rises one thing that might work in your environment is also air rights, right?

, that’s very common in very expensive areas like Manhattan, right? If you have a seven story, you can sell the air rights, so somebody can put a double the size high rise next to you and they’ll pay you. . So I’d say definitely another interesting opportunity when you’re in those urban environments and you have tall buildings.

Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so let’s take a look at the other side of the equation because when we value multi-family, everybody knows the formalized NOI divided by cap rate equals the value. NOIs income, less expenses. So every dollar we increase in income, and every dollar we reduce in expenses are. In the way they add or subtract from the property value.

So increase in income by $2, but it creates $4 worth of expenses, is actually reducing the property value. So what do you guys like to do when it comes to a new property you take over to maximize efficiency of operations? How can you reduce expenses, cut expenses, change the way you do things that are no longer impacting your opex?

What do you guys like? . One thing we’ve done is an energy efficiency audit where we hire a company to go through, look at all the systems that are in place. In Michigan we have gas forced air furnace furnaces HVAC systems, and some of the older properties. We have hot water heat boiler systems.

So we’ll do a utility audit to see, okay, how are those systems running? How can. What kind of money can we spend to make ’em more efficient or replace ’em? What’s our pay? On that we’ll look at the building envelope itself, the windows do we need to put storms up? Some of my buildings are in historic areas and I can’t replace these old windows that are leaky and drafty, but we can put storms up and in fact, we’re doing that right now as we speak.

And that will have a huge effect on the bottom line. Saving on those utility costs because one, you there, your biggest expenses are gonna be property. Which you can fight, but you won’t always win. Your insurance, which you can always try to, get the best bids on insurance.

But utilities are a huge ticket item and that’s really gonna be the best place to look to find those savings. Find all the leaks in the building. If you have a lot of units, all those little leaks really add. . And the more you can stay on top of those, the more you’re gonna save. So I think utilities is big.

Decreasing tenant turnover very important because someone was just telling, dropped this information on me today, but the average cost nationally to turn over a unit is $4,100. And I thought about that. I’m like we don’t usually spend that much, but when you consider the downtime and if it takes a month or.

To lease it out. That vacancy is costing you money too. So reducing that. That’s, yeah, that’s a lot of things that people don’t realize. So turning a unit is not just how much you pay to paint it or to clean the carpet. It’s everything. It’s. The time the maintenance guy’s gonna be there.

It’s the materials, it’s the time the leasing agent is gonna have to spend on marketing the unit and from showing prospects and doing tours. And then work the application process and the screening fees that you’re gonna get charged. And then that period of lost income is also something that costs you, right?

So we always advocate to do the. Before you tell an existing resident to move out because you want higher rent is what you’re gonna gain versus what you’re gonna lose. Exactly. Yeah. So the more you can decrease that the better. So that’s a really good thing. And that’s a common thread we hear from all the great operators we talk to.

What do you guys do in order to increase.

Tendon appreciation events or maybe gift cards. In one of our buildings, we actually have a restaurant. So we pass out gift cards quite regularly. When it comes time to the end of someone’s lease, we will contact them 60 to 90 days before that lease ends to say, Hey, do you intend to stay?

We really want you to stay. How can. Make it so that you do stay. And we will offer small perks, like if they want a wall painted , if they’ve been there for a while and they need new carpet a new appliance, we’ll do whatever we can up to a certain amount.

We don’t want to, overspend, but we will spend to keep them in that unit so we don’t have those turnover costs. Yeah. And that’s the kind of things that we always encourage our team to look at. It’s if that carpet is destroy, and they move out, we’re gonna have to replace it anyways. So it’s not like you’re spending money to keep them in.

You would’ve spent that money anyways if they moved out. Exactly. Yeah. So spend it while they’re there and they’re still paying their rent. Exactly. How we offer a carpet cleaning service. Somebody will come and car clean the carpet if they have a carpet an appliance, new ceiling fans, whatever we can in order to keep them in.

And especially things that we know we’re gonna have to do anyways if they move out. That exactly. That makes the most expensive for us. Okay. Any creative ideas that you guys have been trying to. in the Covid environment cuz we used to do pool parties and all these kind of events, but we can’t do those anymore.

So in terms of client appreciation or retention promotions, what do you guys do in the Corona environ environment? Yeah, that’s a great question cuz that’s changed everything. You can’t have a pizza party in the lobby or anything like that. Definitely communication has been key, but as far as showing appreciation, gift cards, we still do that.

Addressing service calls as soon as. For a while there when we were in quarantine and we’re not anymore. Yeah. The service calls really kinda had to be put on the back burner unless it was an emergency. But I think just staying on top of the service calls making sure the tenant can get ahold of you and communicate with your management company when they need you that’s very important.

Yeah, that’s great. . Another common question we ask all of our guests is if you could go back 10, 20 years back and talk to younger Brian, what advice would you give yourself? And then let’s assume you can’t tell yourself that 2009 would be the bottom by anything you can put your hands on, right?

What lessons you learned along the way that you would love to pass on to younger? Find those strategic partners, find those other individuals who will help you take your game to a higher level. I’ve been lucky to find strategic partners in the multi-family apartment space.

I’ve found a strategic partner several partners in the self storage space. who really know that area, and I can invest with them. I bring something to the table as well, but can partner with them. And in the performing and non-performing note space, I also have a strategic partner in that.

And that has just, starting out often as an investor, you have to decide what path are you going to. . And I think the more you can find those people who are really good at what they do that you can partner with or work alongside with, the faster you’re gonna be able to go down that path and start branching out into other directions.

Yeah. So it’s all about the people you surround yourself with that’s a really great advice. We’ve heard it in a different way. Find a mentor but it’s, find a partner, find someone that knows what they’re doing that you want to. And partner with them, bring value to them. That’s really a common thread we see with all the great operators.

So I really like that advice. Yeah. Now I like the mentor part, but don’t, I don’t put too much emphasis on that because I think there’s all kinds of great mentors. I think people just listening to your podcast, Joseph, are getting mentorship from you and your guests and now in the age of podcasting.

When I started, we didn’t have the podcast. We had to pay five, $10,000 for this kind of conversation. Yes. But in the age of podcasts, there’s so much great information out there, and I know there are a lot of people doing the training and the mentorship and all that can be very helpful. But if you’re thinking, Hey, I’m gonna spend $10,000 on a mentor who’s going to get me from A to Z?

No. You’ve gotta figure out how to do it yourself. And the quickest way to get there is to partner with someone and bring value to them in the process. Yeah and I’ve. I’ve always been asked like how can I find a mentor or what can I offer a mentor? Because there’s a lot of people that will reach out and say will you be my mentor?

I’ll do whatever you want. It’s kinda what do you mean? Whatever I want? It’s kinda what do you have to bring to the table? Why would I spend my time. I’m helping you and this is where I’ve taken a lot of calls for, from a lot of new people that just wanted, and I still do to today, but I figured for me, the most efficient way is this podcast having conversation with experienced operators asking similar questions so our audience can hear the different opinions and the different approaches.

And the different ideas. You’re the first one that has a mid. So the whole idea of rooftop income still, it’s the first time we came up on our podcast, but, all right, score one for me. There you go, . No, but the idea of, because I talk to a lot of different operators from different parts of the country, then our listeners can get value and knowledge about all those different things like you said.

And all they have to spend is time listening on iTunes. We don’t charge anything for that. It’s free for everybody. And I found this vehicle as a way of dispersing not just my knowledge, but other people’s knowledge in a mass platform instead of one phone call at a time. Yeah I agree. I host a podcast too, and you’ve been a guest on it.

I think if someone is serious about getting your mentorship, And they call you they better have listened to your podcast because a lot of what they wanna gain from you, you’re sharing for free, weekly or monthly or however often your podcast comes out. Yeah. Okay. I wanna be conscious of your time.

You’ve, Brought a lot of value. I just mentioned the fact that you have all those things that, that a lot of our previous guests didn’t have was a huge value. If our listeners want to reach out and maybe invest in one of your deals, ask any questions, how can they find you? And we’ll obviously put everything in the show notes as well.

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. My website is higg investor.com. That’s h i g. investor.com. H i g is short for Hamrick Investment Group and you can listen to my podcast. It’s called The Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcasts. And we’ve that’s have well over 250 episodes, over a million listens, and we’re almost years in.

That’s phenomenal and yes, absolutely go listen to that podcast. I was a guest on it. I listened to quite a few, not all two 50, but quite a few of your episodes and really great value comes out of those things. Thank you. Thank you, Joseph. You got a lot of catching up to do. Yes, absolutely.

Okay. Brian, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you coming on the. And to our listeners thank you so much for listening. If you want to listen more from experienced operators, our website is apt, o p r.com. You can find us on iTunes, teachers, SoundCloud, and now even on Amazon. We’re there. We’ll appreciate any review you can give us one star, five stars, whatever works for you.

We’ll, appreciate it. Thank you so much, and we’ll talk again soon.