Episode 112: How to grow & run a 500 units portfolio as a family business with Mike White – The Apartments Operators Podcast

Michael has been involved in rental property since the last 1900s. From a 2 door duplex he was able to grow to grow the business to 470 plus doors today!

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Show Transcript

Welcome to the Apartment Operators Podcast, where you can learn from experienced operators what it really means to be an apartment operator. No fluff, no sugarcoating, just the raw, unfiltered truth of the ups and downs of operating multi-family communities. Welcome everybody to the Operators podcast. We have Mike White with us today.

Mike is from Texarkana, Texas and he is got a big portfolio of about 500, 600 units. Mike, tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how your portfolio look like today. Sure, Joseph. I’d be happy to start off just a, maybe a little bit of brief history. I was a 33 year financial advisor, mainly with AG Edwards and Morgan Stanley.

Actually 20 years ago, accidentally got into the rental property business through a buddy of mine that was going through a divorce and needed to sell a duplex. That’s how I first started 20 years ago with two doors. So as Joseph said, we’re right at bumping 500 doors today, and I’ll fill the gaps in just a little bit on that.

But that is actually how I started in rental property. And then slowly, Adding more as time went on. Now the previous career in the brokerage business, I was very successful in that. So that set me up to be able to have the wherewithal to be able to go out and acquire and buy and borrow and grow the portfolio.

About five years ago, I made a decision. I was an independent advisor at that time, and I made the. To totally get out of financial advising for clients at that time. And at that time was it also coincided with getting hooked up with a really great us, US bank banker out of Little Rock. And about five years ago really put the pedal to the metal and just started acquiring mainly du duplexes, townhome.

My biggest concentration has got 57 doors, but my growth has really been fueled the last three to five years with the help of this banker. It has been great to work with and I wish I could say something good about. The bankers here in Texas County, but I can’t. But but that’s kinda what got me to the point as to where I am with the number of doors that I have today.

And as Joseph said owner operator, my oldest son has come home about a year ago to help. I have a younger son in San Antonio, but we’re making this more of a family business and a family experience. Had a little bad. Of events with a long time employee and that kind of precipitated the oldest son coming home and it’s been nothing but great to have him home.

That’s awesome. So for the most part, if I remember correctly, you don’t have investors. This is all a family business, family owned, right? Today, yes it is. And in the past there’s been a couple of things. That I have done Joseph, and you can ask me a little bit later in your podcast and we can elaborate.

But you know, coming from the financial advising side, I dealt and developed relationships with a lot of higher net worth people. So there has been, two to four of those people along the wayside that have helped. And there’s also been situations we can talk. A little bit later as well where I’ve gone in and had actually the owners of the rental properties carry some for me.

So yes, I have had some help, but today, as of today, I think I only have one left. And pretty much gotten all of ’em out of the way. But they served a good purpose in helping me to fuel my growth. But I also had to realize, The cash flow from the acquisition that I was buying.

There had to be enough there to make sure that I took care of them and paid them a nice return as well. Awesome. Yeah. We’ll definitely touch base on that one a little bit later. For the audience tell us a little bit about your portfolio. How does it look like? A lot of it is duplexes in town homes, like you mentioned.

It’s all concentrated in one town. Correct. Everything is in Texarkana. We have some outlying bedroom communities. Nash, Texas Liberty is, but it’s all basically connected to Texarkana. And again, I started. 20 years ago with one duplex, two doors. And so today I think we’re sitting on 16 single family homes and the rest is going to be a few standalone duplexes, but all of the other holdings are going to be duplexes and town homes that are gonna be in a location.

And once I established a foot, In that particular location, if there were more duplexes or town homes available, then I would go directly to the, some of the other and try to own the concentration on a particular road. That served me very well up to up until today. Yeah, that’s a fantastic strategy.

It’s kinda like you come in you choose the location first. You get the first one in and then it’s a lot easier to talk to another owner and say, Hey, I own the one next door. Will you sell me yours? That sounds great. So in terms of class I know you have a mixed bag of anywhere from brand new, build a class all the way down to the CC minus.

How does. Managing that diverse a portfolio look like, right? Because you, you have a class with clientele that pays a lot more than the C minus class that pays a lot less. So it’s really rare to see somebody that has such a wide variety of classes in their portfolio. Texarkana is not a huge town.

We’re probably 125,000 metropolitan area, maybe larger. My c classed holding. Are going to be holdings that were acquired earlier. Okay. So I would say in the last three to five years, there have been no acquisitions of C Class holdings. They’ve been all A and B holdings to the management front.

You know what I see and what I experience here, the C class. Properties require a little bit more time and attention to the tenants. So we really have to stay on top of that a little bit more than we do with the A and the B tenants. But naturally, the a and B holdings are newer. We also don’t have to do as much maintenance work on those as well.

So I hope that covered that. Yep, that, that makes sense. So it’s all self-managed, right? It’s all in-house. Did you start with self-management or did you have a third party and then you transitioned to self-management? I’ve never had a third party. Okay. So remember, Up until five years ago, I still had, I had the left hand advising and I had the right hand over here.

So it really started becoming a lot more, taking a lot more of my time. And once the growth started happening, then I had to make a conscious decision. To do away with that side. And I did went out probably 10 years ago. Bought the office where we are right now. And a year and a half ago I bought some storage units, which helps us on appliances heat and air conditioning units.

If I catch a goodbye at Lowe’s or something like, , I have the ability to store those until they’re needed. And I also have couple of resources that we can go to and really get good, solid use stuff and get a little mileage that, and save some money as well. Okay. So was there any point in that path that you’ve considered third party?

No. And why is that? A, I like control. I control this. I run this now, Mason, my oldest son being here as well, and B, that costs extra money to do that. So have I made mistakes over 20 years in, in running all this? The answer to that is yes, but today I don’t make very many mistakes. No, I’ve never considered that.

We’re not a huge area. So literally from the central location of my office 10 or 12 minutes would be the furthest location that we have to go and do maintenance calls, or make readys or things of that sort. We do not go and meet prospective tenants. We have those tenants come by here. We have them leave a driver’s license, credit card, debit card.

We give them the key, we let them go look, they bring it back. So that is an efficient way that we have found that works for us on prospective tenant going out and looking at a unit. Yeah, that, that’s that’s definitely an original way to do that. We’ve had a lot of operators come up and some of them are using third party and some of them had used third party and then transitioned to self-management.

We just transitioned at the beginning of the year to do self-management on our portfolio, and it’s a huge difference. , the cost is not the factor that drove us, but like you said earlier, it’s control. It’s being able to know that you, what you are doing and you have all the aspects under your umbrella and you can make sure that the tenants are being taken care of, that the maintenance is getting done and nobody’s wasting or doing things they shouldn’t be doing.

So I, I totally agree with that one. Tell us a little bit about your organization, right? You mentioned your son, Mason. What is his role in the organization? Who else do you have in your organization to help you run that portfolio? So Mason came home a little over a year ago and basically has implemented changes of rebranding a brand new website.

We’ve hooked up with AppFolio. We have been converting a tremendous amount of our tenants over to paying online, which has made us more efficient. I will say that the Covid situation has really shifted that percentage up for us, which has opened my eyes to make it. It’s more easy, it’s more efficient.

We’re not handling the money, we’re not having to make deposits. So that has really opened my eyes up in that aspect. I have a new office property manager that we hired from one of the larger, newer apartment complexes that she just happened to live in one of her duplexes. She’s been there four years.

She’s on board and doing great. And Mason is really a big part of what goes in the office. And my job has really now shifted over to, taking care of maintenance and making sure the guys are out in the right direction, making sure the units are taken care of. If, just my job is more shifted on that, but I still take care of other things in the office as well.

Making sure we have all the necessary appliances, all the supplies we need, all the paint, for my guys to do their job and. My wife Missy she will come up here and work maybe five days a month during rent time. So Missy will come up and help and we’re still taking cash. We still take personal checks, money orders, cashiers checks, so all those items.

It’s kind of Missy’s job to count. Make sure it reconciles, make. The funds get into the proper entity that we have for that particular property. So really three outta three outta four members of my family are a big part of what goes on up here now which makes things run really well and really efficient.

Yeah, that’s especially on the funds and the accounting side of things, being able to trust the person that you have doing all that work is super critical. And usually there’s no one you can trust more than family. That’s exactly right. I had a bad experience with that, and so that’s all I’ll say about that.

Okay. You mentioned your maintenance side of things, right? What size of a crew do you usually run in order to handle 500 units across the entire town? As of today I have five full-time maintenance. I have two full-time. It’s actually a long-time friend that takes care of all the grounds and he does a lot of extra things during the fall and winter months.

So that’s seven. And then I have I use an independent H V A C guy. I use an independent electrical group and I use an in. Plumbing person. Okay? So I’m not using, plumbing group or a H B A C group or an electrical group. What I have found, and I’m not afraid to ask, and so it works out really good for me, is that if I can get ahold of those independent people and give them volume, business, what are they giving me in?

Quality and discount a discounted rate. I had an el, I had an electrical guy, electrician that was doing my work and he had a lot of guys working for him and he was doing a hundred dollars a call and then a hundred dollars an hour. He got replaced with some very good and qualified people that got referred to me at 65.

So who’s worth that 35% decrease. We are. So you constantly gotta keep an eye on that, making sure the work’s done, getting the work done right, but, heavy plumbing heat and air issues and electrical issues. Now, my crew can put up ceiling fans, replace lights, switches, do simple things.

We can do simple things on plumbing, but there’s just certain things that you’ll need. Those three people. . And this time of year, as you well know, your costs on H B A C can really rise. Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah, I know. That’s what our guys have been doing for the last three weeks is acs anywhere from just checking the fray on and putting some more in all the way to replacing condensers and replacing the entire systems.

It’s it’s Texas in the summer. That’s just what it is. But we have our AC guys, basically our maintenance guys are HVAC certified, so they’re capable of handling, I’d say 95% of all HVAC issues on their own. But just like you, if it’s an electric thing, we get an electricity that is licensed and insured.

If it’s plumbing, we can do a lot of the plumbing all the way up to slab leaks. But when it comes to the massive, like we need a hundred foot machine or we need leak detection, that’s what we have to call it a professional because they have the tools that cost thousands of dollars that it’s not worth for us to invest in for once or twice a year that we really need that extra.

I will say one other thing on H B A C and we started doing this about three years ago. Going out every quarter and changing those filters. Yeah. I have found that my H B A C costs, With the independent fella have gone down by simply getting on a maintenance program of changing those filters.

So we take that opportunity once a quarter and it takes a couple of weeks, but we take that opportunity as well to spray every unit inside and out for insects as well. Yep. No, that’s great. Also washing the condensers outside from all the debris, preferably somewhere in the march timeframe, April timeframe, before the heat really starts hitting.

We found that helps extending the life of all of those condensers especially on the older properties where the, they’re starting to reach their age. And then, the manufacturer, if you call a retail AC technician, they tell you that the manufacturer recommend replacing it after five, seven years.

It’s like we have ACS that have been alive for 20 years, right? And they’re still working very well. So it’s just a matter of good maintenance and preventative maintenance and making sure that we keep everything in life. We call it. , and I call it the common sense approach to taking care of a tenant.

If they take care of their business with us, we’re taking care of them. And we’re Johnny on the spot about what I call hot shots. When someone calls with an issue, we’re usually out there that day and if not, the very next day, you, if even if it’s a non-emergency. And I really believe that is a extremely great.

For new people getting started, you will take care of that tenant. You’re gonna find they’re gonna stay longer, they’re gonna turn out to be good tenants if you’ll take care of them. Yeah, that that’s a perfect approach. Do you manage other people’s properties or just your own? Joseph Used to I did three or four different times up until maybe five years ago, whenever my growth started happening, so I don’t have time.

We gotta take care of our business now. But I have done that before. Okay. And you stopped it just because of bandwidth? Yes. Yes. Okay, so as a owner operator that have about 500 units, that’s usually about 1,012 hundred residents across them if not more. Do you do anything special for your residents?

Any events or deals with other places in town that will give them. Is there anything that you bring extra value other than the obvious of giving them a safe, clean place to live and being like you say John on spot with responding to the work order request? Here’s what we do. Okay. Long-term tenants, we have rewarded them in the past with 50 to a hundred dollars gift cards, and in some instances, a free month’s rent.

Folks that have referred us good tenants, and we’ll always tell ’em we need to have them three months before, but you know, we may give them a hundred to $200 off one month’s for good referral. So we, some of the thing. But with being a spread out now, go from single family homes to a concentration of 57 doors and with being spread out like.

It’s a little bit more difficult to say, you know what, we’re gonna have a big get together for all the good tenants or, so we really don’t do anything like that. Yeah. Okay. So if you could go back, let’s say seven, eight years right. To Mike before the big exponential growth. What would the advice be that you would give yourself, knowing now what you didn’t know, six, seven years?

Here would be the biggest thing is, 20 years ago, I’m 60 now, so I started basically at 40 with my first duplex. I really wish I would’ve gotten that first duplex at 30, 10 years sooner and have that growth carry forward. That would’ve been the biggest thing 10 years ago. Yeah. I can still tell you there were mistakes made along the wayside.

Sure. Everyone’s got hindsight. Everyone’s, would love to go back and make some changes. But the good lord’s blessed me to be sitting where I am sitting today in the situation I am sitting today, and I’ve always looked this. Not that way. You can spend a lot of time, a lot of people looking back there and that you don’t get anything accomplished.

I would continue to look forward, be positive and focused and just go from there. And unfortunately, anyone that does this, and I believe you would agree with me, you are going to make mistakes. What worked for you and what worked for me. Those things are different. Now. There is a lot of general stuff that can go hand in hand, but you know, everyone wants to get into rental property, but once they get into it, they find out, you know what, it’s a lot of work.

Yeah. I think the biggest misconception is that people think that it’s a buildings business. And they don’t realize it’s a people business. Exactly. And when you have people involved, you are gonna be surprised every single day. This business taught us and made us laugh and made us cry, and made us sweat and made us bleed right in every possible way because it’s people.

And people are just unpredictable. That’s just what people do. Let’s talk a little bit about the operations side of things. Give us a few things that you guys like to do in order to increase your income. I got your little printout and I made some notes and so if I can just kinda look at these and go over the things I jotted down, but, It I believe the incre the waste to increase income without increasing rents and the waste to reduce expenses, those go hand in hand.

It’s okay. I’ll go over a few of these. All right. Absolutely. All bathroom, kitchen and outdoor plumbing fixtures. If you got a property, you’re paying a water bill. Stay on top of those. Make sure that everything is not leaking. Ba commodes are not running, kitchen faucets are not running. We try to condition all of our tenants to let us know about that.

I touched on the maintenance of the air conditioning systems. I’ve noticed from just changing those filters, how we’ve had a reduction in H V A C costs. Having my own maintenance guys. I believe having all of these guys internal and me being able to stay on top of them, they’re not getting rich, but you know what?

They’re making a good living. I think that’s an integral factor in helping, in keeping costs down. I hit on seeking out the individual H V A C guys, electrical guys. Not everyone can be big enough to have your own internal H B A C. I’ve tried that four times here in Texarkana.

We have our technical college here at trains him. I’ve tried that four times and four times it struck out. But I have an independent fellow that I’ve probably been using for 10 years, and I’ve just decided he’s the best. I can’t beat what he charged me. He’s got history with the pro properties, and he goes out and takes care of them.

And, wa he’s gotta make money, but he keeps them going and we’re not replacing a lot of them. I touched a little on this, the online payments that has made us more efficient, efficient is saving money and increasing your return. , so that, that has really made a big help as far as we go on our side.

Having the property and landscape guys being full-time employees versus having guys bid the properties to come in and. That is so much more cost effective for me to do that with them versus having these guys come and make a, and again, my deal is different. I don’t have all of these doors at just two locations.

They’re all over Texarkana. Yeah. Monitor the utilities of vacant units. You go walk in one, one of your guys, and you go walk in there and this thing’s sitting on about 58 degrees. Monitor that thermostat. I’ll tell you a quick story on that. It’s been a month or so ago.

I went in a unit, they were in there working on Friday. I walked in it on Monday. You could hang meat. So I went in. And made the guy pay 50 bucks. I said, look, that thing running had to burn this much. I got my point across and I got it across in front of all my guys. Yeah. I just wanna reemphasize that but with a little bit of a different angle.

It’s not just monitoring the utilities, it’s just walking you vacant, right? If you have vacant units, you gotta visit them at least once a week or so. Because otherwise things happen, right? Especially in older buildings. We had one of the units that we walk into it and there’s a full sauna going on something in the faucet, in, in the bathtub, just like an old rubber.

Seal, just bursted and hot water was just flowing and the entire unit was a sauna. You could see the water condensating on the windows from the inside. So that obviously is a lot of damage and you have to come in and you gotta dry everything and water extraction and the whole nine yard. But if we wouldn’t have walked into it a day or two after it started going, it could have been really.

Monitoring utilities for us, it’s part of walking every vacant unit at least once a once a week or once every other week. Yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great idea. You guys do. I probably, we need to be a little more efficient about doing that. Now, fortunately, we run 96 to 98% occupancy.

So our occupancy is always great, but even those ones that we’re not in, we need to probably be looking and checking those a little bit more often. I think I hit on showing the properties, having them come here. Those were really, when you ask that question, reduce expenses and increase income.

Those were the main things that kinda came to the top of my head about the ways that we do that, without coming in and increasing rents, and we. Whenever someone satisfies a lease with us and they’ve been no problem, we leave ’em on a month to month. We don’t go up on our rents. We don’t ask ’em sign a new lease.

That’s somewhere we probably need to look at and maybe make an adjustment because I’ve been of the opinion that. If Joseph is renting from me and I never hear anything from Joseph, Joseph pays his rent on time, I’m gonna leave Joseph alone. But that’s probably a place that I would think that we need to review and probably make some changes on that.

If you’re gonna stay month to month, most people gonna charge you what? A higher rate. Yeah. If you’re gonna go, if you’re gonna sign a new lease, then they’re only gonna go up to. That’s the way most are. And that is a place probably where we could improve. Yeah. The standard that I’ve seen in the industry is that when your lease expires and you haven’t renewed, it goes up to market rate plus a month to month fee.

But anywhere between 50 and a hundred dollars a month. And I’ll say one other thing, a big thing, I had an independent insurance guy up in Nashville, Tennessee, taking care of my insurances. And he got referred to me many years ago. He just kept, things kept going on.

We just, it just stayed in place for several years. And I inquired about Hey, are you watching, are you keeping up with policies or anything we can do to save money? He’d always tell me, yes, but nothing would really, would ever change. And so my youngest son played baseball at u c, the University of Central Arkansas.

And he became friends with the young man and we’re friends with his parents. But the young man went out and he worked for an insurance company and then he went out and became an independent. And I told him if he. I would, I would shop with him and I gave him the opportunity to come in and bid our properties.

He came in substantially lower than the other film. Wow. Don’t always thank an insurance guy just because he has all of it. After a while, they will get lazy. And they’re not really making sure, because that’s a big cost for my portfolio for anyone who’s got a large portfolio. But that is another thing to really stay on top of is, your insurance costs.

Yeah. That’s a very big expense, especially in the last few years that the hurricanes and the tornadoes. And all of that bad weather hit all of the country the insurance companies were getting hit so bad that everybody’s premium went up. Okay. What’s next for Mike and his organization?

Are you guys looking to expand? Are you going to development? Are you going to purchase in different markets? What’s the outlook? My wife and I came from very modest families and we both got educations. We both worked really hard. We had good careers. She was a little hygienist.

Both sons have master’s degrees we took care of our business on that side. But I’m working right now I’m looking to have. A pretty big transaction occurred on the sale side towards the end of September. After that happens, my buying power with my bankers will probably triple.

So what is gonna be the next step? The next step? I’m already looking at other deals here in Texarkana. I’ve already got some acreage. Acquired that I already own and already have some other acreage that already identified that we’re gonna build on. And, that’s gonna be the next step as far as here in Texarkana.

Also have a couple of towns that I don’t wanna mention right now, that we’re going to be looking to expand maybe only a couple hours away from Texa. So this is. What’s getting ready to happen for me and my family is 20 years of hard work coming to fruition and allowing us to really shift gears and go forward with it.

And the really beautiful thing about this whole thing, Joseph, is Mason is along for the ride on it. He’s learning. He’s getting to see something like this happen. And he’s included the whole way. You know what, there’s a lot of opportunities out there for people. But it, where I sit, I’m gonna go with what brung me and I’m gonna continue to do residential rental property.

And I’ll tell you one story. Let me tell you one story. I don’t know how we’re sitting on time, but two 14 years ago, friend of mine’s son said, Hey, you need to go look at this doctor’s house out in North Texas County. I’ll go look at an older doctor. He. Retire and go to Houston. Big house 3,600 square feet, but it was dated.

I bought the house for $165,000. Okay. Back then, I really didn’t know what I was doing. I said, you know what? I wanna flip this and just make a little money off of it. I should’ve just put some new carpet and painted it. And probably could have, but lo and behold, I had too many chiefs and telling me what to do.

So I ended up sinking another $120,000 in this house. Wow. 14 years ago. But it turned out to be a very nice setup. Once we finished shift, plow forward 14 years later, that house has rented for those 14 years, anywhere from 2000 to $2,400 a month. All right. You can do the math on all of that. So can your listeners, but also I just recently sold it for 310,000.

If that doesn’t tell you the power of time on rental property, I don’t know what does. Yeah. We keep telling everybody that real estate is a long game. If you’re trying to buy and sell within two to three years, you’re trying to time the market and might work, might not work. Exactly. But if you play the long game you’re gonna win with real estate.

There’s not a single property out there that is selling today. Same price that was selling in 1994. Exactly. Or even 2000. So that’s like even the people that bought at the top of the market in 2006 were back to zero somewhere around 20 16, 20 17. And now it’s keep going up. Before I let you go, do you have any adjustments or any things that have been impacted in your organization because of the covid situation?

Because, we’re recording this in the end of July of 2020. It’s really hard not to talk about Covid, here’s how, here’s what I can say and how this has affected us. Okay. We probably had four months,

March, April, may, and June. Okay. Maybe some of February, but we literally ran four or five months. We had no one move and we only had one evict. Now you talking about something that can really make everything just run along really great that really did that. So we continued to work. My guys came in and we were here each and every day and we have continued to take care.

We’re an essential business taking care of people’s. So we’ve continued to work and I talked to my guys, if any of ’em were around anyone’s sick or if anyone they knew was around anyone’s sick, do not come into this office or I’d fire ’em. I cautioned them on wearing gloves, masks when we needed to.

And we had continued doing business just like Cornel. So I’m not sure how it is with your rental property, but each and every year in July, there tends to be a big turn. So we’re going through that now. We’re paying for that good time that happened, but you know, it’ll happen this month.

Things will settle down when everyone is kinda focused in school. Hopefully we get back to school going forward, but it really hasn’t affected the business side here very much. . Okay. I’m glad to hear that. Cuz there are a lot of other places in the country that really got hammered. With the Covid.

Some of our properties, especially the ones that are under the Cares Act with Freddy loans on it saw a little bit of a hit. But Like you said, we gotta take care of the residents. And that’s what we’ve been trying to do. And the ones that came to us and communicated that they’ve been impacted by covid, they lost their job with, oh, they got their hours cut.

We created payment plans and we’re working with them. We brought assistant organizations to look into that. We help them fill up the forms, so we’re doing whatever we can to help the residents and hopefully they work with us to get. Unfortunately in this business not everybody is trying to work with you.

And we do have some of the residents that are flat out taking advantage and they’re going, taking this ride all the way out to court. They literally told us, I’ll see you in court. Not willing to pay. Even though they haven’t been impacted, they did not lose their job. Take advantage of this situation.

But I’m glad to say that’s not the majority of people. That’s the majority. One, one thing we did do okay on that side. And I would tell everyone this, and fortunately we didn’t have to go through that a lot, but I told everyone, Hey, if you can get me half, I’ll work with you on the other half.

So basically, I was trying to tell that tenant, if you can put your toe in the water, I’m willing to put mine in the water, but don’t expect me to do the whole. We just, we really didn’t have that much trouble. Again, today, what’s going on? I really think it’s the summer moving cycle right now.

Yeah. Okay. Just to sum it up what advice would you give a new operator? Somebody that is just getting into the business, someone that is buying their first apartment complex or their, even their first pl. The best advice that I would give someone would be to seek out some older person that has done it for 20 or 30 years and go become a friend.

Go take interest in them and let them be a mentor to you. I had a man a little over four years ago. This goes back to what I told you about trying to acquire all the units on a street. I had some, he had eight duplexes in a house, which would give me everything kinda in this little pocket. And so I bought ’em from him and he actually lived across the pond in my neighborhood.

I knew him but didn’t know him well. And today this man is 83, about to be 84 years old. And he and I are so close right now. It’s just not even funny. But I really think that would benefit. Someone to go and find someone that would take an interest in ’em. Cause there’s plenty of people that wanna make a dollar off of you and don’t really care.

But I think that would be the biggest thing that, that I would tell someone, everybody wants to sell a book. Everybody wants to tell you how to do it, everybody wants to do that. You need to go talk to someone that’s successful, that’s got a lot of seasoning under their belt. And I believe that person could learn a lot.

I think that’s one of the best advice our listeners ever got. Find yourself a mentor. Somebody that’s been doing, not somebody that’s been talking. Exactly. Uh, And this will propel you immensely. I wanna say thank you so much for your time today. How can our listeners find you if they want what is your website?

If you wanna share an email or anything else? If anybody wants to reach out to you, how can they find you? Our website is white props ps.com and I will give my business email out. It is mw white props.com and they can email me at that address. And I wouldn’t mind spending a little bit of time with someone that was truly interested and truly You know someone that really, you got, you’ve got to have this in your blood.

Yes. If you’re gonna be successful, this has gotta run through your blood. If it’s not running through your blood and you’re deeply invested in what you’re doing, you’re gonna fail at it. Which could be said about a lot of different things in life. Yep, that’s true. That’s true. Thank you so much. That’s very generous of you.

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