Episode 102: The Best Value-Add Properties are Poorly Managed Properties with Brian Murray - The Apartments Operators Podcast

Welcome to the Apartment Operators Podcast, where you can learn from experienced operators what it really means to be an apartment operator. No fluff, no sugarcoating, just the raw, unfiltered truth of the ups and downs of operating multifamily communities. Hey everybody. Joseph Guzman with The Operators Podcast.

And today we have Brian Murray. Brian is a published author, a very successful one. We’ll put a link in the show notes to his awesome book about apartment. It’s called Crushing It. And thank you for joining us today, Brian. Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be on your show. It’s all of our pleasure here.

Why would you give a few minutes to the audience so they’ll know who you are? What’s your background and what you’re doing today? Sure. I started my apartment investing back in 2007, so it’s been 12 years. I was actually working as a teacher at the time and trying to figure out a way to make some extra income and I’d always been interested in real estate.

So I got out there, started looking at properties, and started slowly looking at bigger and bigger ones. And I actually made a little bit of an unusual start. I jumped in. With a pretty large office building right out of the gate. And I did self-manage and I really had no idea what I was doing, but I figured it out as I went.

And it took me a couple years to turn that property around. And but I learned how to add value to properties. I learned how to manage properties and I started buying additional ones. And did the same thing. I bought retail and then I started buying multi-family. And more and more we’ve been moving into multi-family.

At this point we’ve got a pretty large portfolio. We’re based out of upstate New York. About two thirds of our properties now are multi-family and we still operate all of our own properties. The other thing that’s probably a little bit, Atypical. We actually don’t have any investors, so we haven’t raised outside money to this point.

Looking to the future we’ve reached a size where it’s become harder to grow organically and maintain the growth rate that got us here. So we may be raising capital in the future, but for now we, we are still haven’t taken outside money. Awesome. Thank you for that. And you mentioned that you self-manage, right?

That’s one of the questions we ask all of our guests. Do you self-manage or do you use third party? What led to the decision to self-manage? I think it was by necessity. I’m not in a very large market and the very first property that I got, I assumed the mortgage on that property.

That, that’s. Primarily how I got into a sizable property without having a lot of money to put down. And the lender at the time insisted that as part of the conditions of assuming that I did find a property manager and I looked really hard and I just wasn’t happy with the options I was finding.

Eventually, I settled on a property manager from outside of the area. Basically agreed to do our bookkeeping and allow me to manage under their umbrella. And we kept that arrangement for a couple of years, and they just charged a nominal fee. And at that point I reached a spot that I could refinance that mortgage and get rid of them, and I’ve managed ever since.

But even when it was under their umbrella I was pretty much doing everything. So yeah that’s a. The backdrop in terms of how I ended up doing that, it really weren’t options that I was particularly happy with. And what is the, were options, would you still make the same decision?

I, knowing what I know now, I think I would they, the challenge is what I’ve come to find out is you just can’t expect someone else to. Manage your property the way you would, there’s really no substitute for that. Even when you find a good property manager and when you do, they’re worth their weight and gold.

But, it’s a challenge. No one else ever gonna look at a property quite the same way as an owner will. And I think even in situations where in the future I may be using third party property management, I’ll expect to keep a close eye on things because I think that’s necess. Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent.

I think it’s worth repeating the statement of nobody’s gonna look at your property the way you. So we work with third party property management, but we keep a very close eye on everything. We look at the reports, we talk to the people in the field. We do surveys direct to the residents, right? So we keep a very close look because I like to say that you make your money when you buy, but you lose your money on operations, right?

So that’s why it’s important to keep operation tight regardless of. who’s managing? Yeah, so I think the other thing that’s worth mentioning is that if you do want to have third party property management, you’re gonna be able to manage those third parties much better if you’ve got a little bit of experience doing it yourself.

And I think a lot of people are, they look at it in reverse. They say I don’t know how to do it, so I’ll hire somebody and then I’ll learn. But I would actually encourage people to flip that on its head and say, I’m gonna dive in there and I’m gonna learn it so that I can manage property managers well down the road.

Yeah. I agree with that. I’ll just put one caveat. It works well when you have a 10 20 unit property, but if you are jumping in on your first transaction to a hundred plus, I wouldn’t try to self-manage. That’s true. A lender might not let you . Yeah. That’s a different conversation. Yep.

Yep. How many units total right now do you have under management? We’ve got around 600 residential and about another hundred commercial. So we’re around 700 total in the p. What would you say is your biggest operational challenge these days? Because 600 plus 100. That’s a sizable operation.

And I’m sure you have quite a few people working for you. What’s the biggest challenge? I’d say the biggest challenge is just, it’s not even unique to real estate. It’s finding good people, it’s people management it’s dealing with all the drama that comes with that. It’s I can, I think that any business owner out there can probably tell the same stories whether they’re in retail or real estate or something completely different.

Once you’ve got that many people there’s just a lot of headaches that can come with that. And I feel very fortunate. I feel like I’ve got a pretty good team, but, we’ve still had, we’ve had turnover and had the same experiences that other business owners have.

in property management you get a lot of, you have by necessity, quite a few hourly workers and sometimes there’s, those positions tend to have higher turnover. Yeah. It’s interesting how your challenges are very similar to our challenges. Even though we use third party we still have challenges with hiring and finding the right people and the high turnover.

So that problem exceeds. Having a third party manager or not. Granted they do a lot of the hiring and they deal with a lot of the drama, but it’s still part of our operation and our look at outlook at things. So if you don’t mind, let’s take a couple of examples of properties that you had in the past.

If you can share one win and one horror stories, cuz I’m sure you have those, everybody have those . Yeah. Gosh. Maybe I’ll start with a horror story cuz there’s more to choose from . No we’ve have our share of, what I tell people is we’re making mistakes and learning things every day.

And we have our little wins every day, and some are bigger than others, just it’s just perpetual. And so there is a lot to choose from there on both sides. I would say one of the biggest mistakes we made came right on the heels of one of our greatest success stories. We had two, two different multi-family properties that we purchased at at auction.

One right after the other. So the first one that we purchased, that auction, I actually chronicled that one in my book. And that was a very distressed. Five story multi-family building the apartment building was it really was in rough shape. The, the very dark interiors lights were smashed out.

There’s a lot of drug activity in there. It really had been let go pretty bad. And we were able to step in take that property over. We actually temporarily relocated our management office into the building. Because I knew that there was a lot of, Tendency to look the other way and not wanna deal head on with some of the things that were there.

But we worked through it. We lit the place up inside. Now we put security cameras everywhere and we just started making improvements and worked our way through the tenants that were doing things they weren’t supposed to, weren’t happy to see all those lights and security cameras and the tenants that, that, that were fine.

Were happy to see that. And so you. I think one of the, one of the things we learned from that was that a lot of that stuff sorts itself out. You people don’t want to, if they’re doing something they’re not supposed to be doing, they don’t want that presence. They don’t want that going on.

And a lot of ’em just chose to up and leave on their own. It wasn’t all that smooth, that we definitely had our challenges and I walked through that. But it was a great project and. We were able to create a property that was valued at more than, when it was appraised.

We refinanced it a few years after we bought it, and it appraised at more than double what we paid for it. So we’re very happy with that. , but you know that project was underway and going well and everything looked good. And we had another opportunity to do a similar one. And we did the same thing.

We went in, we bought it at auction. It was distressed. But in this case, we learned a really hard lesson and realized how fortunately we fortunate we were with the first one, that when we got in and we started doing the work, we kept uncovering things behind the walls that we hadn’t been aware were there, was there.

And we ended. Tearing everything out. We didn’t anticipate that we completely gutted it on and ended up putting in all new mechanicals and even making some structural repairs and had some environmental remediation. It was pretty much anything you could think of that would, that could have been in there hidden behind those walls was there.

We powered through we got the project done. But it had a that one had a main building with 20 units, and it had a an old, it was an older building and it had an old carriage house out back that had another eight units in it. And we ended up tearing that building down instead of continuing to hemorrhage money into that project.

In the end, it’s a beautiful property, but I don’t think we’ll ever get back what we put. Yeah so really great lessons here. I wanted to dive into some of them a little bit. The first one you decided to move your office into it and I wanna learn a little bit more about that decision because I do believe that proximity is power.

And I ma made it a little bit of, you made me laugh a little bit with the once you put the security lights and all that, it’s kinda like when you shine a a light on the dark corner, usually all the rats run away, right? That’s right. So what led you to move your office in there and how do you think this would end up if you were not physically in the building?

When we put, when we realized we won the auction, I still remember sitting down in a conference room with my team and talking about our options and how we were gonna handle this. And the unanimous consensus around the table was keep the property manager on. We don’t, this is one we don’t wanna manage ourselves.

And that’s right. Then I knew that. This wasn’t gonna work. So I don’t normally do this. I weigh the input from my team very carefully, but I actually put my foot down and I said, no this needs a complete overhaul. We need to be doing this. We can’t do that. That’s the easy way out.

It’s not the right way to do this. It’s not gonna be successful unless there’s a change. Seeing how, what I saw in that meeting was an aversion to confronting things that there was going to be conflict, it was gonna be uncomfortable. There, there were too many excuses that people would have to work on something else or look the other way or procrastinate when there’s something that challenging.

And I felt like physically locating ourselves in the building made that impossible because everything was right there in your face. You would see the tenants, you would see what was going on. The good tenants would walk downstairs with concern. Complaints and speak right to us. And we had enough contractors in there and with our office in there that there were people all over the place and all those things that would go on, without any observation.

In the past, they couldn’t happen anymore. And I think I, I do think moving in there was in hindsight definitely the best decision. It was a highly effective approach. And it worked out in that, in this. Awesome. That’s great. And then with the other one, the one that you had to tear down on a lot of things was there anything you could have done otherwise?

Hindsight looking right, everybody is smarter hindsight, right? Anything you could have done, I know it’s an auction, so I don’t know if you had access to it before or not. Anything you could have done to figure out these things before you actually bought it and started tearing down. . So you’re absolutely right.

When you buy at auction, oftentimes you don’t have access. We had very limited access and in both cases in the first case, we actually had a tenant let us in and walk around and the second case, the front door wasn’t locked. And so we were able to poke around and look around, but not do a thorough inspection.

So the price we paid for that was that we weren’t aware of a lot of the problems that were in there. And so I think the real lesson learned wasn’t necessarily not to buy things at auction, but to what, when you do that, to do it, recognizing and accepting the fact that there, that those problems could and very well made exist.

And you gotta factor that into your price and into your budget. If you can’t get that, if you can’t get that access, you have to assume the. Yes. That, that, that’s a perfect access. It’s a perfect statement right there. If you don’t know it’s easier to assume the worst than to handle with the aftermath.

Exactly. Okay, great. I wanna circle back to the conversation about hiring people. What do you guys do when you need to hire people in? Organization, do you have a certain process? Do you guys use any psychological tests? What do, what is your process? We’ve tried a lot of different things.

We try to get a candidates in front of as many people as possible, but if I have to think through what’s effective and what’s not, I think and this goes not only in my experience in real estate, but in, in. Prior to that as well, I think many of our, probably most of our best hires over the years have been from referral.

So the number one thing I would say that we do is talk to everybody on staff and see, hey, do you know somebody, is there someone you’ve worked with in the past that you could vouch for or that might be interested? And don’t limit your pool to people who are actively looking, so what I’ll do is I’ll talk to somebody on the team and I’ll go I don’t care if they’re looking or not.

Think about the last place you worked. Who was, who were the stars there? Tell me who they. Let’s reach out to ’em. Let’s invite ’em in, see if they’ll have a conversation. Because unfortunately, a lot of people who are good at what they do are focused on their job instead of out looking for other opportunities.

And, sometimes you gotta actively go to them and pull them away. . And it’s it’s kinda like finding properties, right? Like not all the good properties are for sale, everything’s for sale for the right price. So if you go and knock on a door and you talk to somebody just because they weren’t planting a sale, you may have planted a seed, they might come back to you later.

Or they might actually engage in a conversation on the spot. It, I think employees are really similar in that. That’s a great tip. Thank you for that. So we have, in our industry, we have a lot of compliance regulations for housing rules and so on. How do you keep your team updated and up to code, if you wanna call it this way, with all the regulations and compliance?

We’ve got a great property manager who stays on top of that stuff for us, and, she will educate new hires. We’ve had a professional come in to, to deliver a training to staff and we try to do the best we can with that. Are you using any certain system or you.

keep training every once in a while to make sure everybody is current. Yep. Yeah. Just keep everybody trained. Okay. Do you do any fee management for other people, other owners? No. Nope. Just our own properties. Yep. Yeah, that, okay, that makes sense. Some people do that. I honestly find it really challenging to think about managing other people’s property.

It sounds like a lot of work and not a lot of gain yeah. Sorry. Oh, no. Yeah, a lot. There’s so much that goes into it. I think. , I think it’s money hard earned. So I think there’s if you’re gonna manage properties you, I think you’ll have a lot of business for yourself.

In my opinion, probably the best reward for that could be leads on properties that you might eventually acquire yourself. But the margins are narrow and, it’s definitely not a part of our business that we’re looking to. . Yeah, that makes sense. So do you do any special events for your residents or any like pool parties or I don’t know.

Some people do donuts in the mornings. And what do you guys do for your residents? So that’s not something we do really in our properties. , I know that’s done more widely. We really haven’t, we really haven’t gone in that direction. Most of our communities are not a class or even B class.

It’s mostly, I’d say, c plus communities workforce housing, and it’s just not something we’ve had to do and we’re content to not spend that extra money doing. Okay. C class residents like parties too. . That’s true. That’s true. There’s a lot of things they like.

We’re not gonna pay for ’em all. . Yes. Just a little tip from our operations, right? We have c class properties too, and when we want to do like a pool party, something like that, we reach out to. In the area, and they usually come in and sponsor, or they’ll bring a booth or something. They’ll donate presents like gift cards and stuff like that.

So you can do these things on a relatively low budget. Yeah, and it’s definitely helping with the engagement with the residents. So if you guys don’t do events or stuff like that do you have anything you do to keep retention? I would say that the number one thing we do is we’ve developed a reputation for great customer service and taking care of our properties and in the communities that we operate people recognize that if they wanna live someplace where it’s gonna be well tended to and if they have any concerns, they’re gonna be addressed.

That’s what sets us apart from the competi. Yeah, no that, at the end of the day, most people want just a safe, clean place to live in. That when you need something, you’re getting taken care of, right? If that’s the reputation you were able to build in your community then that makes a lot of sense why you will have retention and you’ll stay full.

And Okay. What about Val? Sorry. What about value add projects? I, you mentioned the one that you have in your book, and you mentioned the one that was not so great. So when you look at a project that is a value add , how do you approach it? How do you decide what’s worth it, what’s not worth it where you should spend money, where you should not spend money?

Help me with what goes through your. . Yeah, I think a lot of it’s, a lot of it’s based on experience, but we’ll we’ll look both at the income side and at the expense side very carefully. And, there’s just a lot of opportunities usually surrounding the rent, particularly, I would say even to raise it up a.

The best value add properties are, I would say, properties that are poorly managed. And so the more poorly managed the property is, the more excited we get when we look at it. And that’s often an inattentive owner. It’s usually third party management. It’s often somebody that doesn’t live nearby or ever visit the property.

It might be out of touch with the local market conditions. I know one of the most common ways to raise value would be to raise rents. But honestly just as often we go into a value add project and lower rents, and you. You don’t really hear people talking about that, but it really depends on the market you’re in.

So if you’re in a, you’re in a high growth market and you’re fortunate enough to be in that environment where rents are rapidly growing, you’re much more likely to raise rents. But if you’re in a slow growth market or even a declining market, a lot of times the rents that, that the owner might be charging are too high.

And so if you can, for example, Lower lowering rents by, say 5%, might result in a 10% increase in occupancy. And then you’re driving up your rental income by lowering rents. And so there’s been a number of occasions that’s worked well for us. That we’ll actually go in and actually we’re actually working on turning around a project right now that had about 55% occupancy.

And the first thing we did is we went in and we slashed the rents because the owners were out of touch with the local market and they didn’t really understand that, Hey, your, the rents were too way too high. And we bought that project November 30th, and we’re here we are.

Four, four months later or five, five months later. And we’re up in the upper seventies in terms of occupancy and the number one thing we did was to lower rents. But we’re always looking at expenses as well. We want to try to make investments that are gonna be long-term, not afraid to spend the money upfront if it means it’s gonna hold expenses down longer term.

. And you know that there’s dozens and dozens of areas that we would look at with something like that. So yeah, just looking at all opportunities on, on, on both sides, both the income and on the expense side. Yeah, so thank you. I think you had a really good point in that I want to reiterate a couple of them.

The occupancy versus rate is always a balance, right? They’re both pull different ways. They higher the rates, the lower the occupancy, and so on. A common mistake I’ve seen people doing their underwriting is finding a property that is. Occupied higher than market, right? Let’s say the market is at 90%, the property is occupied at 95%, and, but the rates are below market and in their underwriting, they underwrite that the rates will go back to market, but they don’t bring the occupancy back to market.

Right, and then that’s double dipping and you can’t really get that. I think your approach of let’s put the rent a little bit lower so we can get the occupancy really shows the understanding of these two are pulling in different directions. And so that’s great. And definitely having occupancy means there’s.

Income coming in, which allows you to do more with the property. Can you give us, I don’t know, three top ways to reduce expenses, stuff that you like to do? Wow. There’s a lot to choose from. One of ’em I mentioned already which is the cameras more and more we’re going to that fairly quickly, and lot of that has to do with we’ve taken on a lot of distressed properties.

Like we, we like to create value with properties that are poorly managed, but. Installing cameras throughout a property really can change the behavior and reduce the amount of damage in the property and abuses, people, abandoning things in the hallways or, throwing extra stuff in the dumpster or doing different things that are gonna cost you money.

And frankly, it discourages the tenants who are bad tenants from living there. Early on. , putting those cameras in I think usually gets us over the long run a great return in on in terms of driving down expenses. One, one that I learned a lesson on af took me 10 years to figure this out.

But we were, we went through and times we’ve made, we make a lot of insurance claims. And what I began to realize is that, So often when something would happen at a property and we would go and we would say what’s the damage? And we would talk about whether to submit the claim or not.

And I just began to realize that over time we really had determined that pretty much any claim less than about $15,000. Wasn’t worth it to submit because our insurance rates would go up and we would have, we wouldn’t end up ahead by submitting claims that were that low. And so at a certain point in time I realized that hey, we basically stopped submitting insurance claims for less than between 10 and $15,000, yet all of our insurance deductibles were at $5,000.

So we went back through and raised all of our. Insurance deductibles up to anywhere from 15 to $25,000, and we saved our company about a hundred thousand dollars a year making all those changes. I think that’s a, talking to investors, especially ones that are starting to build a, a portfolio.

and have enough doors to weather the storm and enough reserves to weather the storm. If they need to come up with an unexpected $10,000 they might want to take a look and make sure that they’ve got the right and they’re not over-insured paying for coverage that you don’t need because insurance costs keep rising and one way to get those rates down a little lower is carry a high deductible.

That’s a fantastic. The I’ve never heard that one. , this, there, like I said, there’s just dozens and dozens of different things that we do. One, one thing that’s a little unique that we do, and almost every property we buy, we end up when we rekey we always take the the locks out of passage knobs on the doors.

And what we realize is if we. Only have a deadbolt on all the apartment doors, and we don’t have keys in the passage knobs, the lockouts practically disappear becomes practically impossible to lock yourself out. The most common lockout is when you’ve got the passage knob locked on and you walk out and then you close it and you realize you don’t have your key.

Yep. It’s, you can’t lock your door unless you have your key from the exterior. When you only have the dead. And I would say almost every apartment community that we’ve acquired has had the locks in the passage, and obviously we’ll eliminate that. And so we’re always trying to think of things that’ll, the little things like that, that pay you back later.

And like we, we don’t like to see garbage disposals. And so what do we do? We, instead of fix ’em, we all, we just take ’em Unless it’s required, by whatever. Water sewer district you’re in. But in, in the cases that we haven’t had anything that’s obligated us to keep them.

And the tenants don’t seem to care so we’ll take those out and then, cause there’s certain things that just tend end up taking a lot of labor, like Yep. Whether it’s ice makers or you. There’s just garbage disposals. There’s certain things that tend to break and can be expensive to fix.

We try to avoid those. Yeah so that’s great. We do the same with the garbage disposal, but not in all of our communities, right? Some of the communities are a little bit nicer and the people want the garbage disposals. In the lower end communities, people don’t care, so we just eliminate them.

We haven’t done that, but I’ve seen some owners, and usually it’s in the C minus kind of class. They take away the dishwashers because the residents don’t use them. They use them as cabinets , so they just store stuff in them. They started eliminating the dishwashers and put in a just a cabinet in there.

Okay, great. If you went back in time to Brian in 2007, what would be the best advice you can. Oh I I would say set your fears aside and stop worrying that you might make mistakes because you’re going to, but that’s okay. You know what does our friend Rod Khun call him seminars?

Seminars. Yes. Seminars. So that’s what they are. And managing a property yourself is an opportunity to have a seminar every day and get some education. I think if you’re thinking about being an operator and you haven’t taken that step I think you just, you go for it.

And to be successful, I think I would say, Two things to keep in mind. One would be try to be as, as proactive as you can instead of reactive. I think property managers tend to fall somewhere on a spectrum there and unfortunately, when budgets are tight, you’re always, you find yourself always reacting.

You’re always like trying to solve problems. And then it doesn’t leave you the opportunity to get out in front of things and to try to push as hard as you can to stay on the forefront of being proactive and preventing the problems from happening to begin with. Management by crisis.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the other thing is that, One of the problems that’s really pervasive in the industry is that property managers and property management companies often develop this poor culture where it’s really an us versus them mentality with the tenants. And I actually think it was an advantage that I didn’t have property management experience when I started.

Before I was teaching I worked in customer service area in a technology company. And I just had that mentality that, hey these are cus these are not tenants. They’re customers and they are the ones who’s paying the bills and, we’re providing a service for them and.

You have to think about them as customers and you have to treat them that way. And it’s a challenge. I’ve hired people who have experience in property management and it’s, they often have that, that us versus them mentality. And I have to make sure that’s not carried into my company.

You want to create a culture that’s service oriented and. If you can do that successfully, that gives you a competitive advantage. It’s not easy to do, but yeah, just think about your tenants as customers. Cuz. Cuz that’s what they are. Yeah. No that’s a another great cold nugget in this show.

We don’t call them tenants, we call them residents. And I, every time I get a chance to talk to our on onsite staff, I keep reminding them that the people that pay their salaries is not the property management. It’s not me. It’s the guys out there in the unit, right? So I tell them, JC. . You walk in and you walk by an associate, they’ll lift their head, they’ll smile and say, Hey, can I help you today?

Did you find everything okay? I tell the same thing to our leasing agents, into our maintenance guys. You walk down an A path and somebody and a resident comes across this your way. Lift your head, smile, wish them a great day. Ask if there’s anything you can do for them, because these are the guys that pay your salary.

It takes a while. You’re right. There’s a lot of us versus them mentality out there. But kindness doesn’t cost money. Yeah. And if you’re kind, you can be firm and kind, you can be demanding and kind, but kind should be one of the ground qualities you want from your onsite staff.

Any, anyone that interacts with the. . Yep. And the, we talked about a variety of things, and, for someone that’s just getting started or early in the process the adding value and the taking care of the property, it doesn’t have to be complicated either.

And some of the, the, probably the. Number one thing that I look at right out of the gate is making a property clean. Painting it, landscaping, and a lot of that. When I first started out, I would do that myself and I, it doesn’t, maybe to do it at a professional level, I don’t have those skills, of course, but, I can paint and I can do some basic landscaping and I can clean.

And if you do those things it really can make a property a world of difference. And you’ll find that, that’ll have probably an even better return than some of the more complicated things that we already discussed. Going back, I probably reassure myself. At an early age that hey, these are things you can do.

You can go out and you can do these things and you can be successful and you can do it as well as somebody else. And you can learn as you go for the things that are more complicated. And there’s always other people you can talk to for advice. Yeah. Awesome. Brian, this has been fantastic. A lot of great information in gold nuggets here.

I want you to take a couple more minutes and tell the audience where they can find you where they can get your book, which is phenomenal and highly recommended. We’ll have links at the show notes, but tell us how we can find you. Sure. You could find me on either LinkedIn or Facebook. You’ll, you could find my website@washingtonstreetproperties.com.

And my book, which is Crushing It in Apartments and Commercial Real Estate, you Can, the easiest way to find that is right on amazon.com. And if any of your listeners read that book and. Have questions at the end. They’re welcome to reach out to me through LinkedIn or Facebook.

I’m always glad to answer questions, but that was a two year project that I really was motivated to try to share everything I learned in my journey with people who wanna try to do the same thing. And everything I could think of that might be helpful to somebody I put into that book. So hopefully some of your listeners will find that to be a good resource.

I, I know it was great to read for me, and I highly recommend it for everybody. Thank you so much, Brian, for being our guest today and for everybody else. We’ll see you in our next chapter. Thanks, Joseph. Take care. Take care.